That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
ecichlid---We all can't be as beautiful as you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Excellent article, and all the most passionate collectors reflect this approach to collecting.
There are multiple examples of Saints, Early bust, Seated,Barbers , and early 20th century type that bring multiples of guides for the really special coins. If the coins are too dark for your eyes, then just pass. Don't remove the natural toning, ever.
Thanks for posting Greg's views. And do it again for when he writes the next installment
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I think he is joking. My first reaction was in a similar naughty vein.
Jay and I are friends, and I can bust his his balls. I specifically remember him busting mine in one of those "post a photo of yourself" threads, and I have been waiting for payback. Since ecichlid stole my thunder, I will have to keep waiting.
At any rate, good article, and thanks for posting.
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
Clearly he's making fun of SaintGuru, all in jest, I am sure!
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
Well, you might be pretty. You might be beautiful. But remember this.
There are lots more of us ugly folks around than you.
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I guess you don't know who saintguru is? >>
Wow, it never occurred to me. He does not exactly keep a low profile around here. >>
I know who saintguru is, though we have never met in person, but my knowledge does not mean that ecichlid either shared that knowledge or was writing in jest. Therefore, I was hoping the original comment was a friendly dig and not a mean spirited rip, which is why I constucted my post exactly as it appears.
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
If YOUR kids look anything like you=====> I think you should concern yourself with buying canvas minbags or potato sacks for cover. You ain't People Magazine type stuff, dude,
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
saint guru's quote from the article: “found that knowledgeable collectors favored coins that had an antique look, a crusty look, with original skin. The seasoned experts understand the desirability and importance of naturally toned coins. They absolutely prefer coins that formed toning over a long time and have never been cleaned. These are much more compelling than dipped”
Here here!
I thought it was interesting that the article inferred that dipping coins could lead to future problems. I really think this is true. In 1980 my grandfather gave me a few Peace dollars, but hee gave them a good soak in Tarn-X before he handed them over. Shiny and new! I still have those coins and let me tell you, they have toned to plain ugly. Tragic.
Is it possible sainguru's personal obverse was dipped back on 1980 too? (<---sarcasm, a jest, just a joke)
Looking forward to part 2.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
Jay: In my book you are a GEM Mint State 55. -- Congrats on being profiled in the excellent Naturally Toned Coins Article. You are includedf with very esteemed collecting company.
SmallEagle: Would you please post a higher resolution image of your following 1796 NGC-64 PL Bust Quarter. It is way cool!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Jay: Since this is a thread about the appreciation of naturally toned coins, and since you mentioned that you liked the eye appeal of my 1823 (Broken 3) Capped Bust Half -- this Busty post is in honor of your appearance in the following Coin Link article: The Basis for Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins
1823 (Broken 3) PCGS-63 Toned Capped Bust Half Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Q: Why doesn't Jay go to a tanning salon, but opts for the exotic beaches of the Caribbean? A: He only wants a natural tone.
Congrats on your article!! I will never forget meeting you at the 2008 Baltimore ANA. Especially loved viewing your gorgeous Saints in the Eagle album atop a Stewart Blay copper display case.
<< <i>Q: Why doesn't Jay go to a tanning salon, but opts for the exotic beaches of the Caribbean? A: He only wants a natural tone. I will never forget meeting [Jay] at the 2008 Baltimore ANA. >>
It is curious that there is so much discussion in this thread regarding Jay’s appearance. He is not the only collector cited in Part 1, and, in this context, his views should hold greater weight than his appearance. Moreover, natural toning, dipping and coin doctoring are extremely important topics. I would like to read some more opinions about the subject matter from forum members.
SmallEagle: I really appreciate this series about appreciating Naturally Toned Coins...
I fully appreciate coins with Original Skin, Full Mint Luster, Solid Strike and Attractive Natural Toning.
In my opinion the TPGS's, and as a result many in Numismatics, typically overly focus on the amount of contact marks when assigning a numeric grade to a coin, often at the expense of other attributes (original surfaces, mint luster & strike) that factor into preservation state and eye appeal.
I think that descriptive grading is more indicative of what the coin actually looks like, than the numeric grade.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I was looking at a MS-64 seated dollar (photos, not coin in hand) and it was covered in sorta black & brown gunky toning with about 3 very prominent fingerprints on it. If I owned it, would I dip it? No. Because once you dip you can't un-dip. But I didn't want it because a) I couldn't afford it so it makes this post easy , but b) technically graded a 64 or not the coin was a total dog IMO.
Don't want to link to the coin because it's for sale at a vendor's site and that would be disrespectful. But there are some old coins where some conservation could help. It's just a one-way street in that you can't try it and see, and what do you do to the underlying metal?
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
"Stewart Blay “will state for the most part the Eliasberg and Pittman auctions consisted of album and envelope toned coins,” which impart natural toning as these are normal and acceptable means of storing coins and were widely used during the 20th century."
I don't like the term "natural", but I do like to see reference to album or envelope toned coins.
The leading collectors of the 19th century, however, placed relatively greater emphasis on naturalness than do current graders at the two leading grading services, the PCGS and the NGC. Stewart Blay suggests that a major reason why “people dip coins is to [try to] get a higher grade from the services. This is a shame.” Uh oh!
In fairness to the PCGS and the NGC, I (this writer) assert that these two services have, since 2007, been placing relatively greater weight on originality when calculating grades of rare coins and have more effectively filtered out ‘doctored’ coins. During the decade from 1997 to 2006, thousands of ‘doctored’ pre-1934 U.S. coins were graded and encapsulated. Some may want to think twice about placing a premium on coins in those older holders!
The vast majority of collectors should not feel excluded from scarce or rare coins that are great in this respect. A collection of rare and/or significant scarce coins with natural toning and/or mostly original surfaces commands respect among experts, has historical and cultural significance, and is satisfying to a knowledgeable owner. For example, an appealing, naturally toned Barber Dime in Fine-12 condition can be acquired for less than six dollars. Here, here!
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>"Stewart Blay “will state for the most part the Eliasberg and Pittman auctions consisted of album and envelope toned coins,” which impart natural toning as these are normal and acceptable means of storing coins and were widely used during the 20th century." I don't like the term "natural", but I do like to see reference to album or envelope toned coins. >>
If not ‘natural,’ please suggest alternate terms. In regard to toning, I think the term natural is better than the term ‘original.’ A coin starts toning soon after it leaves the Mint. When a coin tones, could it then be 100% original?
The term natural refers to toning that comes about when coins are carefully stored in ways that are consistent with the traditions of coin collecting.
<< <i>[Some may want to think twice about placing a premium on coins in those older holders! >>
Just a few hours ago, a former, prominent TPG grader told me that there are many coins that were certified in the past that would now, if submitted raw, NOT qualify for a numerical grade from either of the two leading services.
As for your point about the ‘old’ holders, remember that a reference was made to doctored coins that were graded from 1997 to 2006. My guess is that premiums are more likely to be paid for coins that were graded before 1997, certainly before 2002. I admit that I am not familiar with the precise timeline for the various holders. Maybe someone could enlighten us regarding this point?
"If not ‘natural,’ please suggest alternate terms. In regard to toning, I think the term natural is better than the term ‘original.’ A coin starts toning soon after it leaves the Mint. When a coin tones, could it then be 100% original?"
I see your point and I don't disagree per se. Let me ask you a question. If you took a silver coin that is blast white silver today and stored it in an old envelope that you knew contained sulfur, would you say the toning it develops is "natural"? I would assume the answer is yes because it is, as you put it, "carefully stored in ways that are consistent with the traditions of coin collecting."
What if the paper you used to store the coins had the same elements i.e. sulfur in the paper , but instead of being an envelope, it was a napkin. Would the coin then develop "natural" toning?
I agree with your premise but it's impossible to define tradition. I mean, how often is a coin stored in a paper envelope these days. I know it happens, but isn't a plastic flip or a slab more traditional now.
When possible, I like it when someone says bag-toning, album-toning, envelope-toning. I know it's not always possible to tell which is which and what is "natural".
In the end, I agree with the premise of the article. Old coins that are free of toning don't have the respect of their natural toned cousins among sophisticated collectors. I would like to think I'm becoming one of the sophisticated. (even if I lick my fingers at the dinner table on occasion)
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
SmallEagle
Posts: 736
Comments
I enjoyed that article.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
If he is joking you wouldn't know it from the post......
Take particular note of what Hagen says, and the comment made by Joe O'Connor regarding dipping of any kind, even a light dip.
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
ecichlid---We all can't be as beautiful as you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
There are multiple examples of Saints, Early bust, Seated,Barbers , and early 20th century type that bring multiples of guides for the really special coins. If the coins are too dark for your eyes, then just pass. Don't remove the natural toning, ever.
Thanks for posting Greg's views. And do it again for when he writes the next installment
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I think he is joking. My first reaction was in a similar naughty vein.
Jay and I are friends, and I can bust his his balls. I specifically remember him busting mine in one of those "post a photo of yourself" threads, and I have been waiting for payback. Since ecichlid stole my thunder, I will have to keep waiting.
At any rate, good article, and thanks for posting.
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I guess you don't know who saintguru is?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I guess you don't know who saintguru is? >>
Wow, it never occurred to me. He does not exactly keep a low profile around here.
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
Clearly he's making fun of SaintGuru, all in jest, I am sure!
Nice article, informative.
Who is John Galt?
Fifty-five and very much alive, Son. And my coins ain't so shabby either.
I think it's a great article. Greg really got it right. And having Dale, Duckor and Boiler as co-quoters puts me in extremely good company.
And RYK, I believe the pic you are referring to was you in a brown sweater.
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
Well, you might be pretty. You might be beautiful. But remember this.
There are lots more of us ugly folks around than you.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not certain how to take the reply by ecichlid, but it read as very mean spirited to me; perhaps I read the intent incorrectly? >>
I guess you don't know who saintguru is? >>
Wow, it never occurred to me. He does not exactly keep a low profile around here. >>
I know who saintguru is, though we have never met in person, but my knowledge does not mean that ecichlid either shared that knowledge or was writing in jest. Therefore, I was hoping the original comment was a friendly dig and not a mean spirited rip, which is why I constucted my post exactly as it appears.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"Eenie-Meenie, chili-beanie
The spirits are about to speak..."
Well, just listen.......
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Just having fun at Mr. Guru's expense. Us Chicago guys can do that. Seriously, Jay's style is unique and he's a huge asset to the board.
I will read the article when I get a chance. I'm sure it's good!
<< <i>FRIENDLY?
Well, just listen....... >>
I think it's seven-and-a-half!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>That's one ugly dude pictured at the top of the article. Does Norton software not only make an ad filtering software but also an "ugly" filter? I don't want my kids exposed to this sort of thing. >>
If YOUR kids look anything like you=====>
<< <i>I need to write an article about untoned, as minted coins and their inherent beauty.
I agree with you. Argument #1 below:
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>
<< <i>I need to write an article about untoned, as minted coins and their inherent beauty.
I agree with you. Argument #1 below:
DAMN!!! That's a KILLER COIN! Congrats to you.
Who is John Galt?
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
“found that knowledgeable collectors favored coins that had an antique look, a crusty look, with original skin. The seasoned experts understand the desirability and importance of naturally toned coins. They absolutely prefer coins that formed toning over a long time and have never been cleaned. These are much more compelling than dipped”
Here here!
I thought it was interesting that the article inferred that dipping coins could lead to future problems. I really think this is true. In 1980 my grandfather gave me a few Peace dollars, but hee gave them a good soak in Tarn-X before he handed them over. Shiny and new!
Is it possible sainguru's personal obverse was dipped back on 1980 too? (<---sarcasm, a jest, just a joke)
Looking forward to part 2.
<< <i>I think several members of this board should read that article, they might learn something. This is so true >>
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Eat your heart out, Eunuch.
(I also think that Jay has "naturally toned," beautifully.)
SmallEagle: Would you please post a higher resolution image of your following 1796 NGC-64 PL Bust Quarter. It is way cool!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>If it was mean-spirited you KNOW that the spirits wreak their revenge.
"Eenie-Meenie, chili-beanie
The spirits are about to speak..."
>>
Most spirits I know are pretty sociable. So what proof are the spirits? Droopyd was thinking seven and a half... I'm thinking 7 and 7.
Who would want to collect toners??? I've been informed by at least half the members of these boards that it's all AT...
U.S. Type Set
1823 (Broken 3) PCGS-63 Toned Capped Bust Half Dollar
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins, Part 2
Q: Why doesn't Jay go to a tanning salon, but opts for the exotic beaches of the Caribbean?
A: He only wants a natural tone.
Congrats on your article!!
I will never forget meeting you at the 2008 Baltimore ANA.
Especially loved viewing your gorgeous Saints in the Eagle album atop a Stewart Blay copper display case.
...all the more reason to lean towards a higher grade when the TPG's slab a coin with total orig. crusty surfaces
<< <i>Q: Why doesn't Jay go to a tanning salon, but opts for the exotic beaches of the Caribbean?
A: He only wants a natural tone.
I will never forget meeting [Jay] at the 2008 Baltimore ANA. >>
It is curious that there is so much discussion in this thread regarding Jay’s appearance. He is not the only collector cited in Part 1, and, in this context, his views should hold greater weight than his appearance. Moreover, natural toning, dipping and coin doctoring are extremely important topics. I would like to read some more opinions about the subject matter from forum members.
Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins, Part 1
Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins, Part 2
I fully appreciate coins with Original Skin, Full Mint Luster, Solid Strike and Attractive Natural Toning.
In my opinion the TPGS's, and as a result many in Numismatics, typically overly focus on the amount of contact marks when assigning a numeric grade to a coin, often at the expense of other attributes (original surfaces, mint luster & strike) that factor into preservation state and eye appeal.
I think that descriptive grading is more indicative of what the coin actually looks like, than the numeric grade.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Don't want to link to the coin because it's for sale at a vendor's site and that would be disrespectful. But there are some old coins where some conservation could help. It's just a one-way street in that you can't try it and see, and what do you do to the underlying metal?
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
I don't like the term "natural", but I do like to see reference to album or envelope toned coins.
The leading collectors of the 19th century, however, placed relatively greater emphasis on naturalness than do current graders at the two leading grading services, the PCGS and the NGC. Stewart Blay suggests that a major reason why “people dip coins is to [try to] get a higher grade from the services. This is a shame.”
Uh oh!
In fairness to the PCGS and the NGC, I (this writer) assert that these two services have, since 2007, been placing relatively greater weight on originality when calculating grades of rare coins and have more effectively filtered out ‘doctored’ coins. During the decade from 1997 to 2006, thousands of ‘doctored’ pre-1934 U.S. coins were graded and encapsulated.
Some may want to think twice about placing a premium on coins in those older holders!
The vast majority of collectors should not feel excluded from scarce or rare coins that are great in this respect. A collection of rare and/or significant scarce coins with natural toning and/or mostly original surfaces commands respect among experts, has historical and cultural significance, and is satisfying to a knowledgeable owner. For example, an appealing, naturally toned Barber Dime in Fine-12 condition can be acquired for less than six dollars.
Here, here!
<< <i>
It is curious that there is so much discussion in this thread regarding Jay’s appearance. >>
It's not so curious...you're seeing "coin chic" and not "coin geek." These guys can't stand that I look so good.
<< <i>"Stewart Blay “will state for the most part the Eliasberg and Pittman auctions consisted of album and envelope toned coins,” which impart natural toning as these are normal and acceptable means of storing coins and were widely used during the 20th century."
I don't like the term "natural", but I do like to see reference to album or envelope toned coins. >>
If not ‘natural,’ please suggest alternate terms. In regard to toning, I think the term natural is better than the term ‘original.’ A coin starts toning soon after it leaves the Mint. When a coin tones, could it then be 100% original?
The term natural refers to toning that comes about when coins are carefully stored in ways that are consistent with the traditions of coin collecting.
<< <i>[Some may want to think twice about placing a premium on coins in those older holders! >>
Just a few hours ago, a former, prominent TPG grader told me that there are many coins that were certified in the past that would now, if submitted raw, NOT qualify for a numerical grade from either of the two leading services.
As for your point about the ‘old’ holders, remember that a reference was made to doctored coins that were graded from 1997 to 2006. My guess is that premiums are more likely to be paid for coins that were graded before 1997, certainly before 2002. I admit that I am not familiar with the precise timeline for the various holders. Maybe someone could enlighten us regarding this point?
Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins, Part 2
I see your point and I don't disagree per se. Let me ask you a question. If you took a silver coin that is blast white silver today and stored it in an old envelope that you knew contained sulfur, would you say the toning it develops is "natural"? I would assume the answer is yes because it is, as you put it, "carefully stored in ways that are consistent with the traditions of coin collecting."
What if the paper you used to store the coins had the same elements i.e. sulfur in the paper , but instead of being an envelope, it was a napkin. Would the coin then develop "natural" toning?
I agree with your premise but it's impossible to define tradition. I mean, how often is a coin stored in a paper envelope these days. I know it happens, but isn't a plastic flip or a slab more traditional now.
When possible, I like it when someone says bag-toning, album-toning, envelope-toning. I know it's not always possible to tell which is which and what is "natural".
In the end, I agree with the premise of the article. Old coins that are free of toning don't have the respect of their natural toned cousins among sophisticated collectors. I would like to think I'm becoming one of the sophisticated. (even if I lick my fingers at the dinner table on occasion)