PCGS forum members allegedly complicit in slabbing/selling AT coins.

MikeInFL · September 9, 2009 2:08AM

A very interesting discussion is taking place on the TCCS forums. Those interested in toned coins may want to take a look and judge for themselves:

What a difference a grading service makes.

To the members of this board.

The coin doctor speaks out.

roadrunner · September 9, 2009 2:20AM

What's the Cliff Notes summary of all this? That AT coins exist in top tiered holders? I spent 5 minutes reading some of the posts with nothing really jumping out at me.

roadrunner

Wolf359 · September 9, 2009 2:21AM

All that back and forth makes my head spin. There are days when I'm glad I deal in VAMs, and this is one of them.

RyGuy · September 9, 2009 2:27AM

Reading these threads is livening up my work day as we speak.

renomedphys · September 9, 2009 2:31AM

What's interesting about these arguments:

No-one will admit to cooking, cleaning, recoloring, AT'ing.

It's seemingly believeable, since for most people, the process done right is very difficult to master.

But believe me when I tell you that if it were a simple process to dip-out and recolor and holder a coin, the market would be overwhelmed with rainbow toners, and after a while, nobody would touch them.

Everybody says they would never monkey with a coin. What that says to me is that 99 percent of people don't want to tke the time to master the process, or take the risk of ruining an otherwise fine numismatic item (which they would gladly do if the process was easy). The remaining one percent is divided among bonafide coin doctors and absolute purists that would NEVER knowingly affect a coin's natural process or state of preservation.

MikeInFL · September 9, 2009 2:35AM

<< What's the Cliff Notes summary of all this? >>

Here the way I read it: Two forum members, Nicetoning42107 and Tonedcointrader, have been dealing in (allegedly) AT coins. Apparently, Tondecointrader was simply ignorant when he purchased the coins from Nicetoning42107. However, it appears that Nicetoning42107 knew what was going on and refuses to name the source.

I would ask that Shane, or another member of the TCCS forums who has been following this issue more closely than I, to validate the above summary....Mike

RYK · September 9, 2009 2:36AM

I am sure that it is very interesting, and possibly damning, but I do not have the attention span or patience to muddle through all that.

Unknown · September 9, 2009 2:45AM

This content has been removed.

soty27 · September 9, 2009 3:11AM

<< 

<< What's the Cliff Notes summary of all this? >>

Here the way I read it: Two forum members, Nicetoning42107 and Tonedcointrader, have been dealing in (allegedly) AT coins. Apparently, Tondecointrader was simply ignorant when he purchased the coins from Nicetoning42107. However, it appears that Nicetoning42107 knew what was going on and refuses to name the source.

I would ask that Shane, or another member of the TCCS forums who has been following this issue more closely than I, to validate the above summary....Mike >>

This pretty much sums it up. The issue with tonedcointrader seems to be wether or not he knew the coins were AT when purchasing them- I think the general consensus over there would be for one to make there own descision on that. As far as nicetoning42107 IMO its painfully obvious he knew the coins he was selling were AT and there are several facts over on the tccs that would back that. A few coins did manage to get into holders both NGC as well as PCGS although alarm bells went off once they were offered on the open market as several of those coins are simply just to similar over several denominations, mints, years, as well as all came from the same source"nicetoning42107"

dizzyfoxx · September 9, 2009 3:20AM

Well I'm sure glad I apparently only buy NT coins, i.e. (Naturally Tooled).

al410 · September 9, 2009 3:24AM

The market is already flooded with AT coins! it is no coincidence that in the last few years all of these wild brilliant coins showed up. I am in no way saying there all AT but anyone who has been into coins for even a few years has to have noticed the huge influx of these coins.
AL

fivecents · September 9, 2009 3:25AM

No wonder PCGS has slammed the grading service door on NT graded coins.......jeesh.

kryptonitecomics · September 9, 2009 3:30AM

There are some serious charges/implications that have been brought forward and in some cases corroborated by the sellers themselves. Seeing 50 to a hundred of these coins on one sellers site (TonedCoinTrader) all with the same general toning colors and patterns should give one cause for alarm. Whether you believe he didn't know what he was doing or chose to ignore the obvious warning signs is completely up to each individual that reads the posts in the provided links.

Coin doctors, whether they be ATing coins, whizzing, tooling etc damage the hobby for everyone and should not be tollorated. Whether you chose to do business with these doctors directly or indirectly is of course completely up to you. Greed can be a powerful force......oh and I think it leads to the darkside or something like that

For those that are fans of rainbow toned coins, steps are currently underweigh to insure no more of these coins get into top teir holders

Bochiman · September 9, 2009 3:32AM

<< Well I'm sure glad I apparently only buy NT coins, i.e. (Naturally Tooled).

>>

Gotta give that one to you.....that was

Russ · September 9, 2009 3:37AM

It's been a while since we've had an AT food fight, so we were overdue.

Russ, NCNE

truthteller · September 9, 2009 3:40AM

A main reason the market is flooded with AT coins is simple, supply and demand. When collectors/dealers use the TPGs as a crutch to verify what a colored coin looks like, the buyer begins to spend way too much money on coins that are not worth the money. So, if the buyer spends $75 on an MS64 colored morgan, no worries. But if the buyer spends $2000 on the same coin, the coin doctors would come out in force to supply the marketplace. It's like drugs and law enforcement. Limit the supply, the price goes up, the law tries to enforce, so more is supplied at higher prices, and the cycle continues.

Now that we see a marketplace flooded with questionable coins, the buyer is hesistant to purchase, NT or AT. Until the prices come down to a reasonable level, which has happened with many Morgan dollars, then the impetus for coin doctors will not wane.

TRUTH

adamlaneus · September 9, 2009 3:41AM

Has anyone tried to dip this colory garbage off of a coin and restore it in as much as it is possible, to a more original state?

Or are they permanently like that?

Is the makeup permanent?

telephoto1 · September 9, 2009 3:43AM

I just joined TCCS forums because I personally have a fair personal collection of toned coins as a sideline and found that discussion interesting...we also occasionally sell toners but don't really make a market in them at our business per se. I guess I'm viewing this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot... I like that 84O and would buy it in a heartbeat as NT. I have an 1878 7TF PL with similar color. As to the 1888 piece, if anyone remembers Wayne Miller's collection-he owned a couple of monsters with very similar color to that piece.

Classof67 · September 9, 2009 3:47AM

<< I am sure that it is very interesting, and possibly damning, but I do not have the attention span or patience to muddle through all that. >>

My thoughts exactly, but I had attributed it to the fact I turn 60 in a few days!

ponderit · September 9, 2009 4:00AM

<< 

<< I am sure that it is very interesting, and possibly damning, but I do not have the attention span or patience to muddle through all that. >>

My thoughts exactly, but I had attributed it to the fact I turn 60 in a few days!

>>

Happy Birthday!

Russ · September 9, 2009 4:01AM

<< Has anyone tried to dip this colory garbage off of a coin and restore it in as much as it is possible, to a more original state? >>

Russ, NCNE

Peaceman · September 9, 2009 4:04AM

Dont have the time to read all of that... but it's easy to sum up AT coins within a slab...

IF 100% OF THE COIN (BOTH SIDES) HAS TONING, IT IS SUSPECT.

Simple as that.... you can't tone "part" of the coin or "one-side" of the coin within a slab...

I hold back my comments on those who post really off the wall coins like that already in slabs... just screams AT.

Ok, continue..

RYK · September 9, 2009 4:05AM

I have always figured that about half of the specialty sellers (give or take 10%) of toned coins are knowingly selling phony stuff. I just do not know which half.

kryptonitecomics · September 9, 2009 4:09AM

<< I just joined TCCS forums because I personally have a fair personal collection of toned coins as a sideline and found that discussion interesting...we also occasionally sell toners but don't really make a market in them at our business per se. I guess I'm viewing this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot... I like that 84O and would buy it in a heartbeat as NT. I have an 1878 7TF PL with similar color. As to the 1888 piece, if anyone remembers Wayne Miller's collection-he owned a couple of monsters with very similar color to that piece. >>

You just nailed the problem with these coins....there are indded coins with similar colors and toning patterns that are 100% legit. One of the sellers even mentioned that he studied NT coins in holders to find out what the TPGs slabbed as NT colorwise. His connections I am sure did the same......it would make no sense from a profit standpoint to make AT coins that look AT as they won't make it into holders and they won't bring the big $$$$$$$. The goal of all coin doctors is to make a coin that looks legit....you should not be surprised that you might have purchased a coin like this at a show....not all coins with similar colors would be AT but now a lot of those same coins will be guilty by association.

soty27 · September 9, 2009 4:10AM

<< Dont have the time to read all of that... but it's easy to sum up AT coins within a slab...

IF 100% OF THE COIN (BOTH SIDES) HAS TONING, IT IS SUSPECT.

Simple as that.... you can't tone "part" of the coin or "one-side" of the coin within a slab...

I hold back my comments on those who post really off the wall coins like that already in slabs... just screams AT.

Ok, continue.. >>

This is nto what is going on in this case, these coins are being slabbed- not cooked in the slab

soty27 · September 9, 2009 4:11AM

<< 

<< Has anyone tried to dip this colory garbage off of a coin and restore it in as much as it is possible, to a more original state? >>

Russ, NCNE >>

I really dislike you!!! That was a very pretty morgan.

Russ · September 9, 2009 4:19AM

<< I really dislike you!!! That was a very pretty morgan. >>

Yeah, but is was shake and bake.

Russ, NCNE

Bear · September 9, 2009 4:22AM

While I can spot many AT coins, I have to admit,

that a lot of them would have fooled me. The

discussion only verifies what we on this Forum

already knew, "If a coin looks too good to be

true, then it probably is AT" The toned dollar craze

has passed, until enough new suckers come into

the market ,without knowing what they are doing or

the history of AT coins.

soty27 · September 9, 2009 4:40AM

<< 

<< I really dislike you!!! That was a very pretty morgan. >>

Yeah, but is was shake and bake.

Russ, NCNE >>

Couldnt tell much from the image and I try not to judge to much from only a image. Continue on good sir.

mommam17 · September 9, 2009 4:40AM

I like colorful toned commems. After looking at them for many years, you get a feel for what they look like. Sometimes, they will look different from the norm and a red flag goes up for me. I stay away and look at other coins that I`m comfortable with. I have a good feeling about my collection because NGC or PCGS, CAC, and myself all think they are naturally toned coins. I don`t think an AT coin has gotten by all of us, although it`s possible!

ajia · September 9, 2009 4:43AM

What I find interesting is the posture some of the members make.....

With all due respect to Sunnywood, "...you are directly responsible for all of the fallout and damage that this will cause."
I guess I'm just not a 'hardcore' toning fan.
What's the "fallout"?
Tone collectors will stop buying toned coins & go with (dipped) blast white coins?
Maybe that every toned coin is now suspect?

Heck, we didn't watch all those coins for 10, 20 , 30 years while they 'toned'.
Who's really to say whether or not every coin is AT once some start getting past the TPG's?

I'll say it again, I'm not a 'hardcore' toning fan, but if I like the toning on the coin, I'll buy the coin and enjoy it.

TomB · September 9, 2009 4:45AM

<< Well I'm sure glad I apparently only buy NT coins, i.e. (Naturally Tooled).

>>

That was actually quite clever, Dizzy.

I agree with truthteller when he states that the reliance on the TPGs has caused many in this niche to enter at a level that they are unprepared given their knowledge. This drives prices higher and demand increases. I am one of the original toning nuts, but I left actively buying wonderfully toned coins in more of less 2001/2002 because the market went too hot, in my opinion, and the coins were trading at levels that I thought unsustainable and irresponsible. Most of the toned coins I have left were purchased by me in the 1990s and generally have a very different look to what is seen today in TPG slabs.

nankraut · September 9, 2009 4:47AM

<< Well I'm sure glad I apparently only buy NT coins, i.e. (Naturally Tooled).

>>

Hey....good one, Dizzy!

nankraut · September 9, 2009 4:53AM

<< 

<< 

<< Has anyone tried to dip this colory garbage off of a coin and restore it in as much as it is possible, to a more original state? >>

Russ, NCNE >>

I really dislike you!!! That was a very pretty morgan. >>

Well...each to his own, I guess. I like the dipped one better than the "chartruse" gaudy colored one.

fc · September 9, 2009 5:01AM

i am not surprised at all by the people involved in those threads.

kryptonitecomics · September 9, 2009 6:22AM

<< What I find interesting is the posture some of the members make.....

With all due respect to Sunnywood, "...you are directly responsible for all of the fallout and damage that this will cause."
I guess I'm just not a 'hardcore' toning fan.
What's the "fallout"?
Tone collectors will stop buying toned coins & go with (dipped) blast white coins?
Maybe that every toned coin is now suspect?

Heck, we didn't watch all those coins for 10, 20 , 30 years while they 'toned'.
Who's really to say whether or not every coin is AT once some start getting past the TPG's?

I'll say it again, I'm not a 'hardcore' toning fan, but if I like the toning on the coin, I'll buy the coin and enjoy it. >>

Yes I think you hit on part of the problem...guilt by association which could drive prices lower and financially impact collectors active in the toned coin market. In addition it might persuade collector who like colorful coins to stay away from this segment of the hobby for fear that they will end up with nothing but shake and bake jobs becuase they haven't studied chemisty for 20 years.

Your right we didn't watch the Morgans tone in bags for 20, 50, or 80 years but plenty of this hobby's most well known dealers have been present when original bank sealed bags of Morgans have been opened. Unless of course folks want to say that someone broke into bank vaults, removed the lead seals, poured something on the coins, sealed them back up and then waited for the rainbows to appear....

Treeman · September 9, 2009 6:32AM

"One of the sellers even mentioned that he studied NT coins in holders to find out what the TPGs slabbed as NT colorwise"

He studied coins that "the TPG's slabbed as NT", which doesn't necessarily mean that they actually were NT. I get jumped on everytime I bring it up, but the fact is that "Color coins" were about non existent in the old days. Now that Color coins are popular, they are coming out of the woodwork. The only way any of the "experts" can tell that they are NT, is if someone who paid a fortune for the coin says so. I've seen "color progression" charts on this site, and these can prove an NT coin. Of course, the color progression would only hold true if all coins were subjected to an identical environment over there lifetime. Another "color progression" problem arises when you see the very same colors on a 100+ year old Morgan, and a 1962 dime! Maybe the Morgan was put into a sterile atmosphere when proper "color progression" was reached? Fact is, the only REAL way to tell if a coin is NT, is to have owned it from day one. Then again, I'm a bit of a cynic. I don't believe in the "Full Red" Large Cents either. I really think that most "Color Coins" were helped along, and the TPG's know it. They are just playing the "Market Acceptable" game. Kind of like the guys who can very easily tell a "70" from a "69". Yeah, you guys can do it, but neither TPG gets it the same twice in a row. Collecting should be fun. If you like big money "Color" coins, or "Full Red" Large Cents, or Proof and MS "70's", more power to you, enjoy your collection! But please, use common sense, and realize how these things seem to show up when there is a market for them. I've seen a lot while collecting the last 35 years, and some things didn't exist in the "old" days......

BECOKA · September 9, 2009 6:38AM

<< It's been a while since we've had an AT food fight, so we were overdue.

Russ, NCNE >>

The only problem is I don't see a fight here it's on another forum.

barbershopper · September 9, 2009 6:45AM

Just stick with "BLAST WHITE" and all your problems are solved.

JT

BECOKA · September 9, 2009 6:54AM

<< Just stick with "BLAST WHITE" and all your problems are solved.

JT

>>

But, but, that is artificial blast and the slightly muted luster proves it.

telephoto1 · September 9, 2009 6:57AM

Like I said earlier, tempest in a teapot. If it's toned, some people will always agonize and argue over whether it's AT. If it's blast white, they'll agonize and argue over whether it's dipped. Same poop, different shovel.

If I like the piece, it looks original to me under the tone, and I see no other overt red flags indicating AT then I'll likely buy it. If it's slabbed so much the better.

hammered54 · September 9, 2009 7:02AM

just thinking out loud....have you seen a GSA with these colors? these have been in bag's for a 100 years before being "slabed" so to speak.

now the nickel's look spot on (90%) as I have a whole book that look's just like them (Grandfather's in a libray of coin's book, he passed in 1963)

Connecticoin · September 9, 2009 7:06AM

Wonderful. Now PCGS and NGC will be bodybagging MORE toned coins. It is near impossible to get an NT envelope toned coin holdered now -- the sad thing is a lot of these coins are now going to be dipped to get them into plastic.

IGWT · September 9, 2009 7:57AM

Thanks for the entertainment, Pat.

WoodenJefferson · September 9, 2009 8:03AM

The lyrics "Money, money, moneyeeeeee" comes to mind.

darktone · September 9, 2009 8:33AM

Nobody listened to me in the past when I said these rainbow bag toned coins were not around thirty years ago. The part time toned coin dealers wrote me off as a clown. I feel better now.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 9, 2009 8:44AM

That's very impressive color, AT or market acceptable or whatever.

Bear · September 9, 2009 8:53AM

When it comes to toned coins....Nothing beats a Keebler Cookie.

scoobydeux · September 9, 2009 8:57AM

<< Like I said earlier, tempest in a teapot. If it's toned, some people will always agonize and argue over whether it's AT. If it's blast white, they'll agonize and argue over whether it's dipped. Same poop, different shovel.

If I like the piece, it looks original to me under the tone, and I see no other overt red flags indicating AT then I'll likely buy it. If it's slabbed so much the better. >>

Edscoin · September 9, 2009 8:58AM

<< Nobody listened to me in the past when I said these rainbow bag toned coins were not around thirty years ago. The part time toned coin dealers wrote me off as a clown. I feel better now.

>>

darktone, I agreed with you then. Now I feel better too.

golfer72 · September 9, 2009 9:26AM

If so many of these Morgans are AT how come you see a large portion of the toners between the dates 1883-1887? Why would the coin doctors pick those dates?

PCGS forum members allegedly complicit in slabbing/selling AT coins.

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