The deceiving via PCGS Genuine has begun in earnest

tjkillian · January 10, 2009 12:25PM

eBay now has sellers selling coins in PCGS genuine holders without disclosing the problem. Here's an example:

eBay auction

Writing is not clear enough to tell what the problem is with each coin, and it is certainly not disclosed by the seller.

I fear that there will be more "Genuine" slabs in the future than there are graded coins!

Raybob15239 · January 10, 2009 12:28PM

Its clear that each slab is a "genuine" slab. How is this deceptive?

ziggy29 · January 10, 2009 12:30PM

<< I fear that there will be more "Genuine" slabs in the future than there are graded coins!

>>

Yep. And those who used to search on "PCGS" to look for problem-free coins are going to find more and more problems to weed through.

ANACS, here we come.

tjkillian · January 10, 2009 12:31PM

<< Its clear that each slab is a "genuine" slab. How is this deceptive? >>

The seller is not disclosing WHY each coin did not grade, i.e. cleaning, scratched, et cetera. The numbers are not clear enough on the labels to make your own assesment.

JRocco · January 10, 2009 12:31PM

Agree that this is a problem.
If you are reading these boards Don please consider the label:

Genuine-Details - then state the problem.
or
Genuine - Not Gradable -then state the problem.

You are already putting the problem on the label in a code number, so
why would it be harder to actually list the problem?

blu62vette · January 10, 2009 12:32PM

He is advertising and selling genuine coins. I think that is fine.

I have seen this seller locally and he does a lot of wholesale business if that matters to any.

AUandAG · January 10, 2009 12:35PM

I'm with you on this one. Yep, very deceptive. New policy and those that know can
take advantage of those that don't.

Remember, as a forum member, you know what's going on. Plenty of nice folks that
don't.
bob

GRANDAM · January 10, 2009 12:35PM

I see no deception here. Seller is NOT stating a grade, clearly lists the coins are in genuine holders.

Grey Sheet BID is $65 in VF & $125 in XF. For someone who wants a GUARANTEED genuine 1908-S Indian Cent the sellers $90 price seems reasonable to me.

If a buyer isn't happy with the price,,,,, DON"T BUY IT!!!!

Sometimes people have to take responsibility for the fact that they are adults.

BTW, I am not the seller or associated with them.

JMHO, GrandAm

Bayard1908 · January 10, 2009 12:35PM

I don't see a problem with this listing. The photos aren't great; but, they're good enough to know that something's wrong with each coin.

TAClough · January 10, 2009 12:38PM

<< I see no deception here. Seller is NOT stating a grade, clearly lists the coins are in genuine holders.

Grey Sheet BID is $65 in VF & $125 in XF. For someone who wants a GUARANTEED genuine 1908-S Indian Cent the sellers $90 price seems reasonable to me.

If a buyer isn't happy with the price,,,,, DON"T BUY IT!!!!

Sometimes people have to take responsibility for the fact that they are adults.

BTW, I am not the seller or associated with them.

JMHO, GrandAm

>>

Well said!

Some like to make problems for others for no reason

TAClough · January 10, 2009 12:40PM

<< 

<< Its clear that each slab is a "genuine" slab. How is this deceptive? >>

The seller is not disclosing WHY each coin did not grade, i.e. cleaning, scratched, et cetera. The numbers are not clear enough on the labels to make your own assesment. >>

Then don't bid!

TheRegulator · January 10, 2009 12:40PM

Not deceptive...

robkool · January 10, 2009 12:41PM

Those seller pics look bad...
Based on those photos, I can narrow the coins problem possibilities to:
(94) Altered Surfaces...
(95) Scratch/Rim Damage... "
(97) Env. Damage... Which appears to be the more obvious problem in the group.
(98) Damage...

Therefore... I'll pass...

illini420 · January 10, 2009 12:43PM

I would buy all 7 for $90

ziggy29 · January 10, 2009 12:43PM

To me it's not so much about deception as just really sad that one can't do a search for PCGS coins any more and assume they're going see a bunch of mostly nice and problem-free coins any more. We're going to have an increasing amount of chaff to sort through.

mustanggt · January 10, 2009 12:46PM

I don't see any deception. He is selling what PCGS labeled the coin.

direwolf1972 · January 10, 2009 12:46PM

Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction

ColonialCoinUnion · January 10, 2009 12:47PM

<< The deceiving via PCGS Genuine has begun in earnest >>

You might be right, but the example you have linked exhibits nothing deceptive at all in my opinion. It's like you want to find it so badly that you are seeing it even when it isn't there.

CoinJunkie · January 10, 2009 12:48PM

<< To me it's not so much about deception as just really sad that one can't do a search for PCGS coins any more and assume they're going see a bunch of mostly nice and problem-free coins any more. We're going to have an increasing amount of chaff to sort through. >>

One thing that will mitigate this is to put "-genuine" in your eBay searches.

GRANDAM · January 10, 2009 12:48PM

I guess a buyer could always "Ask the seller a question" if he wanted more information?

Seller has 19,986 feedbacks,,,,99.9 % positive rating,,,, lists a 1-800 telephone number you can call to ask questions and offers a 7 day return.

Don't see how you can ask for much more?

GrandAm

illini420 · January 10, 2009 12:49PM

<< 

<< The deceiving via PCGS Genuine has begun in earnest >>

You might be right, but the example you have linked exhibits nothing deceptive at all in my opinion. It's like you are trying so hard to find it that you are seeing it even when it isn't there. >>

Agreed, I've bought from the seller before and had no problems. Here, the seller isn't saying anything positive about the coin, just really isn't saying much at all other than what is printed on the slab... Is the seller intentionally not showing clear photos of the tags with the grading codes??? who knows...

mustanggt · January 10, 2009 12:51PM

Direwolf's example doesn't even comply with ebays photo policy of showing the entire slab.

ziggy29 · January 10, 2009 12:51PM

<< One thing that will mitigate this is to put "-genuine" in your eBay searches. >>

I have a feeling sellers will quickly learn that the word "genuine" is the kiss of death when listing PCGS coins and not use the term.

I think this whole "Genuine" thing was hastily brought out and in a panic to get more coins submitted. There should be an indication of what the problem is, and they should have used a different service name like they do ATS.

I think they're going to ultimately regret the implementation.

blu62vette · January 10, 2009 12:53PM

<< Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction >>

That one is awful, totally different story.

tjkillian · January 10, 2009 12:53PM

I am surprised by the comments that some folks do not think that this is deceptive. The coins are genuine, but have problems. What problems? Cleaned? Bent? Corroded? Almost all coins on eBay are genuine, but some have problems that are either stated, not stated or clear what the problem is with a particular coin. This auction you have no idea what the problem on each coin is, and by not being able to see the label or being told what is the problem, you cannot make an informed decision on whether to bid or pass.

He's hiding the problem of each coin from the potential bidder!! All we know is that they are genuine.

illini420 · January 10, 2009 12:54PM

At least the new Genuine slabs have codes so the buyer (if informed) can figure out the problem. It's much worse in my opinion when sellers are selling the older .GN Genuine slabs like this one and are able to make up whatever they want about how great the coin is...

1909-O $5 PCGS Genuine

illini420 · January 10, 2009 12:55PM

<< I am surprised by the comments that some folks do not think that this is deceptive. The coins are genuine, but have problems. What problems? Cleaned? Bent? Corroded? Almost all coins on eBay are genuine, but some have problems that are either stated, not stated or clear what the problem is with a particular coin. This auction you have no idea what the problem on each coin is, and by not being able to see the label or being told what is the problem, you cannot make an informed decision on whether to bid or pass.

He's hiding the problem of each coin from the potential bidder!! All we know is that they are genuine. >>

After thinking about it a little more, I think you are correct. Also, based on the selling price, its deceptive... I guess I would think it less deceptive if the seller were dumping them for maybe $40 or $50 each...

ColonialCoinUnion · January 10, 2009 1:03PM

<< He's hiding the problem of each coin from the potential bidder!! >>

He could also just be a bad photographer.

<< All we know is that they are genuine. >>

Did you email him and ask for additional information or even just a clearer picture of the label code?

If these coins were in PCGS XF45 holders, would you expect a detailed description of each coin, or would the holder grade suffice? If your answer is that you would expect a detailed description, do you believe all Ebay buyers would insist on that information?

In general, I think you are overestimating the number of buyers who will want to know the specific reason why a coin has "Genuine Not Gradable" written on the back, when many will be satisfied just knowing that they wouldn't grade.

But if you want to know, by all means ask him. If you get an incomplete, evasive or downright deceptive answer, I'd be more inclined to agree with you . . .

pheh · January 10, 2009 1:10PM

Don't like... don't buy... don't whine.

rld14 · January 10, 2009 1:25PM

This one was my favorite..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290286094640

It got a gen holder for AT, and this clown was hawking it as a rainbow toned gem.

I asked him why it was in a Genuine holder, this was the e-mail response:

<< This coin was not graded but was certified as a gen. coin - coinsplusinc >>

Another seller to add to the "Don't EVER buy from" list.

notwilight · January 10, 2009 1:26PM

Putting the problem on the label doesn't stop scrupless sellers from trying to convince you it's a smokin hot deal. See this example. Awesome Large cent, only 2 graded higher!!!

DJCoinz · January 10, 2009 1:29PM

<< He is advertising and selling genuine coins. I think that is fine. >>

I agree.

thisnamztaken · January 10, 2009 1:44PM

<< Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction >>

At least he did type "This is just graded as genuine by PCGS no grade was assigned" further down in his listing. But does eBay allow you to put "MS-62" in your title (as he did here) when it's not graded as such on the slab?

gecko109 · January 10, 2009 2:04PM

The title of this thread is the ONLY thing that could be interpreted as "deceptive". To the OP, dont allow your personal viewpoint on the new PCGS service to cloud your judgement anymore than it already obviously has.

lava · January 10, 2009 2:04PM

Isn't being genuine like being a virgin? You are either a virgin or you are not; a coin is either genuine or not.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · January 10, 2009 2:06PM

<< 

<< Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction >>

At least he did type "This is just graded as genuine by PCGS no grade was assigned" further down in his listing. But does eBay allow you to put "MS-62" in your title (as he did here) when it's not graded as such on the slab? >>

My understanding is that eBay does not permit putting "MS-62" into the title for a coin PCGS slabs only as "genuine". The claim of "MS-62" and the failure of the seller to provide a photograph of the entire slab strikes me as purposeful deception.

RYK · January 10, 2009 2:07PM

The only real problem that I have with that listing is that all coins are considered to be equivalent. If I were buying one for my IHC album set, if I had one, I would like to pick and choose which one I received. This is not an egregious abuse of the "PCGS Genuine" product, IMO.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 10, 2009 2:16PM

<< The title of this thread is the ONLY thing that could be interpreted as "deceptive". To the OP, dont allow your personal viewpoint on the new PCGS service to cloud your judgement anymore than it already obviously has. >>

You said it better than I did.

robkool · January 10, 2009 2:24PM

<< 

<< Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction >>

At least he did type "This is just graded as genuine by PCGS no grade was assigned" further down in his listing. But does eBay allow you to put "MS-62" in your title (as he did here) when it's not graded as such on the slab? >>

Rules violation...

IrishMike · January 10, 2009 5:50PM

I can see both view points, I will just that the vast majority of collectors at this level probably wouldn't care all that much. They buy to fit a slot, help their kid fill an album or want it because of its lower mintage, etc. One positive thing for the hobby other than increased TPG revenue, as they do run a business and need to stay in business, is hopefully by buying a slab from a reputable company this will pique their interest in learning about problem coins. Problems exist with coins to varying degrees and hopefully this might lower the number of newer collectors who get turned off with the hobby when someone tells them that the coin they bought in either a 3rd world slab or raw is worth very little because of its problems. Every one has to learn from their mistakes sometimes or move on.

TavernTreasures · January 10, 2009 7:28PM

Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me.

CertifiedGoldCoins · January 10, 2009 7:45PM

It's early yet, but providing crooks with an easy opportunity to cheat people is a mistake that will eventually bring the PCGS label into disrepute among those people who are cheated. Once there are enough cheated people who come to distrust PCGS, the numbers will go.

Currently on Fleabay:
EXAMPLE #1: A cleaned coin. Does the forbidden word cleaned appear on the label? No. How about the description? "This is a 1882-CC Morgan Silver Dollar that is professionally slabbed by PCGS as Genuine. This coin has MS-65 detail with wonderful luster. PCGS is the top and most respected grading company out there today. This coin is professionally pictured and is the coin you will receive. You decide what it is worth,"

EXAMPLE #2: A coin with Environmental Damage. Do those words appear on the label? No. How about the description? "This is a 1914-D Buffalo Nickel that is professionally slabbed by PCGS as Genuine. A very nice looking key date nickel that has VF/XF detail. This coin is professionally pictured and is the coin you will receive. You decide what it is worth,"

EXAMPLE #3: A coin with a Scratch / Rim Dent. Do those words appear on the label? No. How about the description? Well, even though this seller rambles on with 1,668 words, we find only comments like this laughable one: "We strive to grade and price our coins fairly and conservatively. We are well aware that eBay has a high percentage of opportunists that put money ahead of ethics. We do not believe that deceiving people is the right way to do business. We will attempt to represent and price our coins in an accurate way."

How quaint. And this seller has [six] such listings.

Not enough yet? How about a GROUP of six, all at once? Will a crook buy the lot, and resell them individually?

I could list a dozen more, but I've made my point, except for those who prefer to stick their heads in the sand, like an ostrich, and defend PCGS, even when PCGS goofed.

Want to see the rest? Here you go: LINK

19Lyds · January 10, 2009 7:50PM

<< Not nearly as much of an abuse of the "genuine" slab as

this auction >>

I think the auction you quote is actually deceptive since he was able to assign a grade and use PCGS in the title allowing folks to 'think' they were actually getting an MS62 PCGS Graded coin when all they're gonna get is the "Genuine" PCGS slab on a coin "he" thinks is an MS62.

He should not have put MS62 in the title and I'm a little surprised that the auction wasn't reported.

ksteelheader · January 10, 2009 9:40PM

Oh, woe is me. Someone is making it hard for me to navigate Ebay!!!

Some of you probably get pissed when going somewhere and have to make a detour because someones home is on fire on the route you planned. Some people make mountains out of molehills.

Life is merely a series of choices. Why piss and moan about little things that you simply have no control over, when you could just move on.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 10, 2009 9:44PM

<< Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>

Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't.

PerryHall · January 10, 2009 10:07PM

<< 

<< Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>

Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't. >>

Why does it need to be "in giant capitol letters"? Listing a problem on the label would certainly make it more difficult for a dealer to sell a problem coin to a new collector.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 10, 2009 10:11PM

<< 

<< 

<< Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>

Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't. >>

Why does it need to be "in giant capitol letters"? Listing a problem on the label would certainly make it more difficult for a dealer to sell a problem coin to a new collector. >>

This whole thought process is bizarre to me.

It's like saying that Toyota should paint all their cars day-glow orange so that it would be more difficult for bank robbers to use them as get-away cars.

ksteelheader · January 10, 2009 10:21PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Why they can't indicate the grade and problem on the genuine slab, so that it is easily understood, is beyond me. >>

Because many collectors who buy coins do not want to see "SCRATCHED" or some other awful word in giant capital letters on their slab. I know I wouldn't. >>

Why does it need to be "in giant capitol letters"? Listing a problem on the label would certainly make it more difficult for a dealer to sell a problem coin to a new collector. >>

This whole thought process is bizarre to me.

It's like saying that Toyota should paint all their cars day-glow orange so that it would be more difficult for bank robbers to use them as get-away cars. >>

A lot of lazy people in todays society want everything their way.

ccmorgan · January 10, 2009 10:28PM

Well if it's not gradeable it's not purchaseable. If it's a raw coin that's different. Then I can buy or not based on IF I like it. Nothing says I'm going to submit every raw coin I purchase. As a matter of fact 99% I don't.

mozeppa · January 10, 2009 10:58PM

not deceptive at all!

there are many people that want to complete their collections any way that they can...with little regard for grade.

they just want them protected by a slab...to preserve them no matter what they would or would not grade.

most collectors are NOT rich...they just enjoy the hobby as best they can.

besides ...if i'm not mistaken , this seller has a return statement.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 10, 2009 11:05PM

<< eBay now has sellers selling coins in PCGS genuine holders without disclosing the problem. Here's an example:

<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://cgi.ebay.com/7-1908-S-PCGS-GENUINE-INDIAN-HEAD-1c-DUTCH-AUCTION_W0QQitemZ330298921791QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_US_Individual?hash=item330298921791&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:4|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:200" target=blank>eBay auction</A>

Writing is not clear enough to tell what the problem is with each coin, and it is certainly not disclosed by the seller.

I fear that there will be more "Genuine" slabs in the future than there are graded coins!

>>

I just want to say that in California, it's different. Disclosure is a law with home buying.
In coins that are housed there, it gets a little cloudy.
Who cares if someone died in the house they bought ? They're dead and the plastic tomb keeps you safe from the ghosts. There is nothing to fear, but fear itself.
Maybe PCGS can add a new line to the "FIRST STRIKE" line of products. Genuine can be called

"PARANOIA STRIKES™ "

The deceiving via PCGS Genuine has begun in earnest

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