Options
Update on New IKE Discovered! Reported in CONECA Errorscope Magazine
19Lyds
Posts: 26,475 ✭✭✭✭
Here's the lastest with some GOOD News and some Bad News!
I'll give the bad news first.
Some wires got crossed at ANACS and my coin was not brought in the shipment for the ANA Show whic means I could not see it or show it at the New Ikes Workshop!
Now here's the good news! ANACS is Fed Exing it out to the ANA Show and will have it on display at the ANACS Booth for all to look at and loupe if you wish.
Now for the Bad News, I'm flying out at 7:00am tomorrow morning which means I won;t get to see myt IKE in its holder before the rest of the folks at ANA Tomorrow!
But, I should have it in my hot little hands before the end of next week!
----------------------------------------------------------
Here's the latest:
My coin has been graded and attributed by ANACS as the following:
1971-S $
PROTOTYPE STRIKE
DMR-038 ODV-010, RDV-007, DDO-023
PF 64
While I do not agree with the grade, I think I can understand the reasoning behind it (which I also do not agree with) as the coin was graded againt "production" proof standards which is in direct conflict with the attribution of "Prototype Strike".
The coin has no mirrors and very limited cameo along with the presence of die polishing marks so, comparing it with a regular production proof as the grading criteria, then yes an MS64 would be appropriate. However, the coin is not a "production" proof but a "prototype" strike which should have merited a different grading criteria IMO.
We'll get a more definitive explanation at the Baltimore Show, perhaps during the NEW IKES workshop.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anybody seen the latest issue of the Errorscope magazine?
That's my IKE on the cover!
I'll give the bad news first.
Some wires got crossed at ANACS and my coin was not brought in the shipment for the ANA Show whic means I could not see it or show it at the New Ikes Workshop!
Now here's the good news! ANACS is Fed Exing it out to the ANA Show and will have it on display at the ANACS Booth for all to look at and loupe if you wish.
Now for the Bad News, I'm flying out at 7:00am tomorrow morning which means I won;t get to see myt IKE in its holder before the rest of the folks at ANA Tomorrow!
But, I should have it in my hot little hands before the end of next week!
----------------------------------------------------------
Here's the latest:
My coin has been graded and attributed by ANACS as the following:
1971-S $
PROTOTYPE STRIKE
DMR-038 ODV-010, RDV-007, DDO-023
PF 64
While I do not agree with the grade, I think I can understand the reasoning behind it (which I also do not agree with) as the coin was graded againt "production" proof standards which is in direct conflict with the attribution of "Prototype Strike".
The coin has no mirrors and very limited cameo along with the presence of die polishing marks so, comparing it with a regular production proof as the grading criteria, then yes an MS64 would be appropriate. However, the coin is not a "production" proof but a "prototype" strike which should have merited a different grading criteria IMO.
We'll get a more definitive explanation at the Baltimore Show, perhaps during the NEW IKES workshop.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anybody seen the latest issue of the Errorscope magazine?
That's my IKE on the cover!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
0
Comments
Looks like an interesting topic!!!
How is it compared to others available?
The mag has everything you every wanted to know about error coinage with some very good topics and great insights. The December 1999 isuue was the one that announced the discovery of the 1971-D RDV-006.
The coin on the cover represents a never before seen Obverse Die Variety and a never before seen Reverse Die Variety. It is currently being evaluated by some experts in the field after having been heavily examined and documented by The IKE Group. I've shown the coin picture several times on these forums but have never garnered any questions about it.
If you look closely, you'll spot the difference almost immediately but as with any IKEs out there, very few actually get looked at which is how I came upon this remarkable coin!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>So what indicates this as a prototype proof? >>
Well, first off, the coin is definitely a proof. Secondly, it's a proof with obverse and reverse die varieties that have never been documented. Thirdly, this proof "design" never made it to production since all the 1971-S proofs are of the Cameo/deep mirrored varieties. However, some of the design did make it into the production design.
The coin does not exhibit deep mirroring which was typical of proofs of the era. It also lacks the cameo typically seen on proof IKE coins. Any cameo that does appear on the coin is very crude. (Possibly experimentation for consistent cameo production?) The coin is totally devoid of scratching or bag marks which is characteristic of a coin that has received some type of special handling. If you recall, the business strike 40% IKE's were shipped in $1,000 bags to the packaging facility which is the primary reason only one coin for the 1971-S Business Strike coins grades higher than MS67. Of course, that is all speculation on my part given the appearance of the coin. However, I can state without doubt that this coin has never seen a bag.
As for the variety, look closely at the L in Liberty. The top of the L in LIBERTY has no serifs and actually fades into the background. Die abraded varieties fade from the bottom of the letter up like the pegleg IKE's. Many of the heavily abraded proof peglegs show very weak bottoms on the "E's" next to the pegleg "R's".
Although this is coin appears to be a 1971-S business strike, it is in fact a proof coin which is distinguishable by the sharp characteristics of the devices. The rim is extremely sharp. The earth on the reverse more closely resembles Gasparro's original Galvano than what was selected for the production version. The earth on this coin has a crude cameo appearance but you can distinguish islands off the coast of Florida which do not resemble the typical Type 1 or Type 2 Islands. The shape of the Gulf of Mexico is almost identical to the FEV Gulf while the shape of Florida resembles neither the type 1 of type 2 Florida. (BTW, the Eagle is of the Friendly Variety!)
The coin is a nice DDO which can clearly be seen in the motto but the lettering in the motto is of a lighter style than any others produced. Notice how the G in GOD does not have a serif? And there is no indication of die abrasion that would have removed the serif. I've shown a Proof G and a Business Strike G for comparisons.
Lastly, IKE's hair is a different configuration than any of the other recognized varieties. Mainly toward the front of the hair. The prototype is on the left followed by a 1971-S BS and a 1971-S Proof.
Where this particular coin fits into the developmental process for selecting a design that work work in the manufacturing process is unknown to me but speculation is that it was very early in the "design" phase given the fact that some of the design elements were incorporated into the final approved design.
This coin is neither a Business Strike nor a Cameo'ed Proof and displays completely different Obverse and Reverse die varieties which have been validated and verified by a leading expert in the field. Since documentation from the mint during this time frame is non-existant, the only logical conclusion that can be arrived at, given the uniqueness of the design, is that the coin was a development prototype to specifically test the design viability in the manufacturing area. The coin is labeled as a proof since the quality and workmanship screams proof.
The name is LEE!
I am much relieved to find out that is your Ike and not your hair.
TD
Did you notice BEFORE or AFTER you got the Coin?
Any idea of how many are out there for something like this ?
Would the Mint do a full run of a die pair and let the coins 'go' into Proof sets?
What do you and Capt., think on this?
<< <i>I was consulted on this piece. It is indeed a prototype die pair.
TD >>
If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment, how certain are you that the coin is not simply a counterfeit?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I was consulted as well, (as a part of the IKE Group) and your question was a very distinct possibility and a legitimate question.
It didn't take long to put that idea to rest, after closely examining the coin. For me, it was the "S" that solidified the coin
being real. The "S" punch is pretty dang distinct, and I see no way it could have been duplicated on a fake so perfectly.
It is indeed, a remarkable "Prototype" Ike and probably the most significant discovery in the series since 1999 (the FEV).
JMHO
Brian Vaile
I Love
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
GrandAm
It is people like you that do the heavy lifting for all of us variety collectors.
You contributions with you area of expertise is always appreciated and your
willingness to take the time to share your insight with the rest of us is top shelf.
Great job.
While I might not agree with you on everything Lee
am very thankful for your research.
<< <i>What's the story on how you found it?
Did you notice BEFORE or AFTER you got the Coin?
Any idea of how many are out there for something like this ?
Would the Mint do a full run of a die pair and let the coins 'go' into Proof sets?
What do you and Capt., think on this? >>
The story behind how I found this coin was actually quite simple. As I have stated many times before on this forum, I cannot loupe a coin worth a damned! At the Longbeach show last February, I came across a dealer that had quite a few rolls of IKEs to go through. While I was perusing the rolls which consisted of Business Strikes and Proof coins, I saw this one and immediately noticed the earth. If you recall, the proof Type 1 coin had recently been announced by ICG and I was definitely on the prowl. On this coin, it looked liek a 1971-S Business Strike with a Type 2 reverse. I tried to see the earth with the loupe but just could not make heads or tails of it given the lighting. I knew it was different, I just could not pinpoint what the differences were. As calmly as I could had the dealer put that one in a flip while everything else went into a roll.
When I got back to the apartment where I was staying, I louped it real good under some nice lights and was just blown away by what I had seen. It was definitely a proof and not a business strike and the earth was NOT a type 2 earth but more closely resembled a type 1 earth except there were no distinct outlines because of the crude cameo finish. I proclaimed to my wife and her cousin, who were both well into rum & cokes, that this was a significant coin!
After I flew back home, I immediately scanned it and sent the pictures off to the IKE group as I knew that I would be over my head on this one. I then mailed it to ModernDollarNut who spent the next two weeks attached to it with an umbilical cord, a camera and a microscope. He and the rest of the IKE Group enlightened me as to what I had come across!
Needless to say, I have been extremely excited about this, yet was not free to share what I had found until after the experts had examined it!
Right now, we would like folks to examine their IKEs and see if there are anymore like this out there. As I've stated in the past with IKE's, we look but we do not see. As coin collector's it is so very important to look carefully at what you find as new varieties on older coins are found on a regular basis anymore.
My sincerest thanks go out to the IKE group for the support and knowledge that they have shared with me in the past and with this particular coin. These guys are top notch!
I'm just a weenie that got lucky!
Edited to add: I need to point out that it was my wife that actually found this dealer that had all the IKE's! She is my eyes when I'm at a coin show since I'm usually a blathering coin junkie in a room full of fellow junkies looking for a fix while she isn't as easily distracted by every pretty little coin that we walk by! I tell her what "we're" looking for and she find's it! She takes my hand and gently guide's me to the treasures I seek! This is actually the second time she has spotted neat IKE's that I have walked right past! The first time was a really sweet MS64 Type 2 that was nestled into a partial roll of uncirculated coins that I picked up for $2 bucks each!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I was consulted on this piece. It is indeed a prototype die pair.
TD >>
If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment, how certain are you that the coin is not simply a counterfeit?
Sean Reynolds >>
There is absolutely no chance that it is a counterfeit.
TD
Couple that with the different design elements on this coin that were incorporated into the final designs and there is just no way!
The name is LEE!
Excellent. Congratulations!!!
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
It might be a small world we live in, but coins make it a vast universe.
Let me tell you, this is the first Ike that made my knees go weak. John, you're right! Had to work to keep drool off the coin.
Lee mentioned no bag hits, he didn't mention that the coin grades a lock MS/PR68 and probably MS/PR69.
The darn thing has the edge of a Silver BS Ike and no mirrors so it is sort of a "stem cell" Ike but IMHO it is more proof than BS.
There is fine die abrading over the fields on both sides and less-fine abrading at the top of Ike's head that just overlaps the left foot of the R, creating almost a "Peg Leg" (and no, there ain't no signs of clash, LOL).
And the craters have different details than either the Galvano or the '71-S production proof.
But here's the fun part: how the heck do you attribute a single unique specimen Ike like this? There is no frame of reference for this Ike other than the Series as a whole. For me, it comes down to a succinct description, "Prototype Ike with proof characteristics, MS/PR69". Needless to say that hasn't stopped me from writing a lengthy piece on the coin in which I set out a hypothesis that this Ike was coined at about the time Gasparro was still planning on high relief for the entire production, or a bit later when I suggest the FEV was the intended reverse design for all low relief Ikes (including a low relief clad proof). All most hypothetical to stretch our thinking.
Back to realities, how about valuation? What do you think this Ike would bring at auction?
And if it got into the CPG, would PCGS have to add it to their Registry Set(s)? The mind boggles. . .
Seriously, Lee and the Ike Group are publicizing this Ike to stimulate a search for any others like it. As time goes by, if none others surface it becomes more and more likely that there aren't a lot of them runing around.
In this regard, the Mint first minted '71-S Proofs in quantity in December, 1971. But, on October 14th, 1971, Ikes Birthday, Mary Brooks went down to the local DC Post Office with several bundles of Brown Packs for a well publicized ceremonial shipping of the first Ike Proofs.
Mint records show a "minting" of 2,180 Ike proofs in September, 1971.
One wonders, were these 2,180 Ike proofs "minted" or were they a collection of prototype and test strike Ikes gathered for the October 14 mailing and for the necessary handouts to political bigwigs?
So, boys and girls, check your '71 Ike proofs for the T1 reverse and for Lee's Prototype. In both cases the Earth is the screening marker. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>
In this regard, the Mint first minted '71-S Proofs in quantity in December, 1971. But, on October 14th, 1971, Ikes Birthday, Mary Brooks went down to the local DC Post Office with several bundles of Brown Packs for a well publicized ceremonial shipping of the first Ike Proofs.
Mint records show a "minting" of 2,180 Ike proofs in September, 1971.
One wonders, were these 2,180 Ike proofs "minted" or were they a collection of prototype and test strike Ikes gathered for the October 14 mailing and for the necessary handouts to political bigwigs? >>
This situation sounds an awful lot like how the "Reverse of 1999" Sacagawea dollars were created: a limited production run was required for a special promotion (in this case, the Cherrios inpack) months before the scheduled onset of full-scale production.
I think you are definitely on to something there, Rob. Now you just need people to start checking their Brown Ikes for another example. Let's hope you don't have to wait six years like poor Tom Delorey did for his confirmation specimen of the Cheerios Dollar.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
By the way, if anyone has an unopened shipment of Ike proofs dated October 14, please let me know and let's talk!
I left out an issue I can't answer: is Lee's Ike in high relief or intermediate relief? To me it does not look to be in low relief. But having no laser tools I surely was not going to put this coin in the jaws of a micrometer, LOL! Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>I left out an issue I can't answer: is Lee's Ike in high relief or intermediate relief? To me it does not look to be in low relief. But having no laser tools I surely was not going to put this coin in the jaws of a micrometer, LOL! Rob >>
Of which I am extremely appreciative!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Where can i subscribe to this magazine? >>
CONECA homepage. Errorscope is the official publication of the club, comes out 6 times a year.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Where can i subscribe to this magazine? >>
This is a magazine produced for the members of CONECA. Back issues can be purchased for a minimal fee from the CONECA webpage but to keep up on the latest, I simply joined the organization.
These folks really know their stuff and are not shy at all about sharing which IMO is a really good thing. To often, we as collectors get only a rudimentary idea on how certain errors occur but these fellows get down to the nuts and bolts and the how's and the why's.
I would recommend joining if you have any interest in error coinage at all.
The name is LEE!
CONECA has been wonderfully receptive to the Ike Group, a tribute to their open-mindedness and interest in Design Varieties as well as other varieties and errors.
Membership includes the bi-monthly magazine, I think it's $25 a year.
Back issues are available for $5 and there is an excellent lending library.
Still a small organization, it has a lot of heart, with volunteers doing much of the grunt work and many experts contributing tirelessly over the years.
In the past personalities have clashed as might be predicted when egos and reputations invest in particular theories and explanations but the organization has survived and deserves our participation and support. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>
And the craters have different details than either the Galvano or the '71-S production proof.
The SBA reverse likewise has no added detailing on the craters and weak detailing on the Earth, which makes me suspect that both are descended from the same model via different routes--TD
In this regard, the Mint first minted '71-S Proofs in quantity in December, 1971. But, on October 14th, 1971, Ikes Birthday, Mary Brooks went down to the local DC Post Office with several bundles of Brown Packs for a well publicized ceremonial shipping of the first Ike Proofs.
Mint records show a "minting" of 2,180 Ike proofs in September, 1971.
One wonders, were these 2,180 Ike proofs "minted" or were they a collection of prototype and test strike Ikes gathered for the October 14 mailing and for the necessary handouts to political bigwigs?
Don't forget the 40% silver Bicentennial Proof quarters, halves and dollars struck in August of 1974 so that they would have some publicity pieces to display at the ANA convention down in Bal Harbour, Florida. According to reports given at the time, sets were given to the three designers and President Ford's press secretary. Ford had just taken office a few days before after Nixon resigned, and was too busy to attend the ceremony. Apparently nobody noticed that the dies did not have mint marks, or think about the fact that the regular proofs would. After I made a big deal out of it a few years later, I was told that the no mint mark sets had been returned to the mint and replaced with regular sets. I have my doubts.--TD
So, boys and girls, check your '71 Ike proofs for the T1 reverse and for Lee's Prototype. In both cases the Earth is the screening marker. Rob >>
Awesome story.
I love a good cherry pick story and new discoveries make it even nicer!
I always love a good hunt!
Has anyone discovered a "Blue IKE" 1973 DDO, like the Proof 1973 DDO?
I believe I have a discovery piece.
Now What?
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
"Don't forget the 40% silver Bicentennial Proof quarters, halves and dollars struck in August of 1974 so that they would have some publicity pieces to display at the ANA convention down in Bal Harbour, Florida. According to reports given at the time, sets were given to the three designers and President Ford's press secretary. Ford had just taken office a few days before after Nixon resigned, and was too busy to attend the ceremony. Apparently nobody noticed that the dies did not have mint marks, or think about the fact that the regular proofs would. After I made a big deal out of it a few years later, I was told that the no mint mark sets had been returned to the mint and replaced with regular sets. I have my doubts.--TD"
BINGO! The color picture on the cover of COINS (I think?) at the time showed clearly the three Bicentennial proofs with no mintmark. Also, the lettering had no cameo which I thought made for a beautiful design, especially the broad T1 letters on the reverse of the Ike that seemed to shimmer in place.
Speaking of the mintmark, Lee's Ike's "S" I hoped would help date the coin so I went through the Mint Sets 69 thru 71 but could not make sense of the S. Specifically there did not seem to be a consistent evolution, with an intervening S showing a cut through its middle adding to the confusion.
Then I learned that the old gent who set the S had a glass-full of S mintmark punches on his desk. . . Rob
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>Lee,
Awesome story.
I love a good cherry pick story and new discoveries make it even nicer!
I always love a good hunt!
Has anyone discovered a "Blue IKE" 1973 DDO, like the Proof 1973 DDO?
I believe I have a discovery piece.
Now What? >>
There are many 1973-S DDO's with a light spread. Take some good closeup pictures and forward them to ModernDollarNut.
I would also recommend sending it to a CONECA representative for attribution as there are many "unpublished" varieties out there that CONECA knows about and have documented. Unfortunately, their attribution list is not updated with each new variety that is discovered. For example, I have a couple of 1978 DDO's that do not show up on the list. Granted they are minor DDO's but unique none the less.
The name is LEE!
The L in Liberty on this example clearly has serifs at top.
(Going into speculation mode, perhaps this suggests these newly discovered prototype proofs had to have been struck even earlier than this piece.)
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>In Bowers and Merena's November 29-December 1, 2001 auction (Flannagan sale), lot 4575 is a 1971-S Ike proof, said to be a first day's strike. A letter from Sec. Treas. John B Connely to Amon Carter attests to this, dated August 10, 1971. (While 8-10-71 is the date of the letter, it is not clear if this is the striking date or if it was struck earlier.)The coin and letter are plated in the catalog.
The L in Liberty on this example clearly has serifs at top.
(Going into speculation mode, perhaps this suggests these newly discovered prototype proofs had to have been struck even earlier than this piece.) >>
I for one, would be very interested in seeing a photo of the coin you refer to and I am certain that ModernDollarNut will track that puppy down!
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
That "First Day's Strike Ike" (at least that has a ring of authenticity, LOL) must have been a common 71-S Proof in most part if not entirely as a catalog photo of Lee's Ikes would have stirred up a hornets nest of interest.
Amy body have a copy of that catalog???? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
There's some chance you can find this lot (and its photo) on archive.org. Not much, and I couldn't find it, but perhaps if you're annoyingly persistent you could.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
The pictured Ike is not Lee's. Hard to tell much about the Earth but this Ike is a Peg Leg, the design minted in December, and as far as I can tell otherwise it's consistent with the common production '71-S Proof.
Have to wonder though if there isn't some difference in the pictured Ike that would explain why full production wasn't undertaken until December. Could it be a different Earth??? The Galvano's Earth's islands were very low in relief and probably would not show up well even on a proof Ike, as we saw on Lee's Prototype.
David Golan commented that the incuse mega-island of the '71-S production proof looked like a hasty design. I bet he'd like to see a clear picture of the Earth in this catalog! Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
The Ike Group will introduce a new Ike Catalog System at the August 1 Workshop. Unlike VAM's, our catalog is a common sense descriptive short-hand for every Ike in the series with infinite room for expansion. Still a work in progress but it's a start. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.
Can I assume the image was downsized and if so, I'd sure like to get the full sized image.
The name is LEE!