Sorry Anaconda, but this is the most overgraded coin I've ever seen

sadysta1 · June 17, 2007 2:23PM

I know it is cool but...
good grief

oldcameoproofsguy · June 17, 2007 2:32PM

Is that the planchet or the dies? A proof die would not be so worn... or would it? It looks like there are some massive die chips toward the edge of the coin.

Is this typical of early proof coinage?

It is a very interesting coin however.

numisma · June 17, 2007 3:05PM

That is accurately graded, imho. Remember that it is struck in copper from discarded dies. And.....it is not technically a pattern, but rather a restrike. Beautiful piece. I cannot say if the price is realistic or not since these trade infrequently. It is for a specialist, but again, the grade is accurate. Restrikes cannot be graded based on aesthetic qualities since the dies used were typically in an advanced state of deterioration. For example, consider the 1804 and 1823 cent restrikes.

NumisOxide · June 17, 2007 3:19PM

Dennis is right. These were struck privately from discarded dies that were rusted and in pretty bad shape. See the raise pitting.

Shortgapbob · June 17, 2007 4:14PM

<< That is accurately graded, imho. Remember that it is struck in copper from discarded dies. And.....it is not technically a pattern, but rather a restrike. Beautiful piece. I cannot say if the price is realistic or not since these trade infrequently. It is for a specialist, but again, the grade is accurate. Restrikes cannot be graded based on aesthetic qualities since the dies used were typically in an advanced state of deterioration. For example, consider the 1804 and 1823 cent restrikes. >>

I agree.

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 8:48PM

another agreement. the "coin" is as-struck, & grading should take into account the overall intent of the striking process.

K S

jhdfla · June 17, 2007 9:17PM

Agree with Dennis and John... those rusted dies gave her a good case of pizza face for sure...

John

PerryHall · June 17, 2007 9:23PM

So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade.

droopyd · June 17, 2007 9:28PM

I have a question -- what are the advantages of selling a $40K coin on eBay rather than thru an established auction house? Purely financial? How much more should Anaconda expect to net by selling on "just-a-venue"?

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 9:28PM

<< So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade. >>

are you kidding? the coin as imaged has CONSIDERABLE eye-appeal.

K S

RedneckHB · June 17, 2007 10:33PM

<< 

<< So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade. >>

are you kidding? the coin as imaged has CONSIDERABLE eye-appeal.

K S >>

Not to me. Liberty looks like the wicked witch of the west. YUK!!!

ziggy29 · June 17, 2007 10:38PM

Looks more like a contemporary counterfeit to me!

curly · June 17, 2007 11:33PM

Eye appeal?!!! That's the worst case of the zits I've ever seen!

tradedollarnut · June 17, 2007 11:36PM

<< 

<< So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade. >>

are you kidding? the coin as imaged has CONSIDERABLE eye-appeal.

K S >>

I, uhhh, agree!

ricko · June 17, 2007 11:39PM

That is titled a "Gold Half Eagle"... although it looks like copper, and posts above call it copper.... who is confused?? Cheers, RickO

keets · June 18, 2007 12:18AM

it is a Copper restrike of a Gold issue, struck with the original dies. it's much the same as all the pattern coins struck in a different alloy.

CaptHenway · June 18, 2007 12:31AM

A great example of a Mickley private issue restrike, but to call it a Proof is insane.
TD

keets · June 18, 2007 12:35AM

to call it a Proof is insane.

why??? if the method of production meets the requirements, such as a specially prepared die pair, specially prepared planchet and special striking procedure it really shouldn't matter what the coin looks like.

CaptHenway · June 18, 2007 12:40AM

<< to call it a Proof is insane.

why??? if the method of production meets the requirements, such as a specially prepared die pair, specially prepared planchet and special striking procedure it really shouldn't matter what the coin looks like. >>

Is there any evidence that:

1. The dies were specially polished?
2. The planchet was specially polished?
3. The piece was struck two or more times?

Advise.
TD

IGWT · June 18, 2007 12:43AM

There are two of these things struck in copper. Grade is superfluous.

keets · June 18, 2007 1:16AM

not to be arguementative, Tom, but it's reasonable to assume that all those things were done. also, to be totally objective, calling it a Mint State example would be just as "insane" absent any substantive information. i would think that the planchet would be specially prepared simply because it was a very limited issue, it seems logical that since the dies were rusted/damaged they required special attention to be useable and it follows that more than likely multiple strikes were made to impart the full detail.

this isn't an area i'm familiar with, it just seems reasonable to assume that's what was done, but i could dead wrong.

MrEureka · June 18, 2007 1:33AM

to call it a Proof is insane

I agree. Not that it affects the value of the piece.

Edited to say that I've seen the piece in person, which makes it easier to make the judgment about the coin.

tradedollarnut · June 18, 2007 1:37AM

<< to call it a Proof is insane

I agree. Not that it affects the value of the piece.

Edited to say that I've seen the piece in person, which makes it easier to make the judgment about the coin. >>

What would you call the Libertas Americana medals?

keets · June 18, 2007 1:46AM

the only point i'd repeat is that Proof refers to a method of manufacture and not what the coin looks like. absent any documention it can't be said with any certainty which it really is, i just assume that special preperation had to be undertaken to make everything happen.

CarlWohlforth · June 18, 2007 1:49AM

<< << << So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade. >>
are you kidding? the coin as imaged has CONSIDERABLE eye-appeal.
K S >>
I, uhhh, agree! >>

I disagree! Sure it is a rare pattern and coveted as such but the dies were is such bad shape it detracts from the athestics of the design.

MrEureka · June 18, 2007 1:51AM

What would you call the Libertas Americana medals?

Hmmm...

I know I've seen full mirror silver pieces, so I have no problem calling the silver ones proofs.

The surfaces of the bronze pieces are less convincing. Before voicing an opinion, I'd want to study them, first for evidence of double striking and then simply in comparison to the silver pieces. If the edge and strike of the bronze pieces are identical to the silver pieces, I'd call them proofs as well.

Of course there may not be a perfectly correct answer.

fc · June 18, 2007 1:51AM

not really a good candidate for a grade discussion was it?
but the PF seems to have gotten people into a froth!

interesting pattern.

tradedollarnut · June 18, 2007 1:58AM

<< What would you call the Libertas Americana medals?

Hmmm...

I know I've seen full mirror silver pieces, so I have no problem calling the silver ones proofs.

The surfaces of the bronze pieces are less convincing. Before voicing an opinion, I'd want to study them, first for evidence of double striking and then simply in comparison to the silver pieces. If the edge and strike of the bronze pieces are identical to the silver pieces, I'd call them proofs as well.

Of course there may not be a perfectly correct answer. >>

Nice high relief on those for a single strike...

ANACONDA · June 18, 2007 2:03AM

It sounds like the real scoop is out - it's accurately graded. Remember, in matters of taste there can be no disageement.

Finally, it would be really cool if you changed the title to something that isn't quite so disparaging - people who see the title but don't read the thread might think that we're offering an super overgraded coin.

curly · June 18, 2007 2:18AM

You know Adrian, it is just a matter of taste. After looking at it again it has a uniqueness to it that is quite appealing. It just take someone with 'nads to step up. You have ( it seems like forever ) an 1886 proof IHC on your site that others may not like, but it knocks me out.

C'est la vie say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell....Chuck Berry

ANACONDA · June 18, 2007 2:24AM

Make us and offer on that IHC. Who knows!

callawayc7 · June 18, 2007 2:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< So much for "eye appeal" being a factor in determining a coin's grade. >>

are you kidding? the coin as imaged has CONSIDERABLE eye-appeal.

K S >>

Not to me. Liberty looks like the wicked witch of the west. YUK!!! >>

I agree. Might be a cool coin, but FUGLY to me.

CaptHenway · June 18, 2007 3:05AM

<< It sounds like the real scoop is out - it's accurately graded. Remember, in matters of taste there can be no disageement.

Finally, it would be really cool if you changed the title to something that isn't quite so disparaging - people who see the title but don't read the thread might think that we're offering an super overgraded coin. >>

Which real scoop are you referring to?
TD

777 · June 18, 2007 3:06AM

<<<Sorry Anaconda,but this is the most overgraded coin I've ever seen>>>

Sadysta1,

This coin may appear fugly but its the finest known NGC POP. 1/0

And price very accordingly.

Title should read ''Sorry NGC, but this is the most...

Shamika · June 18, 2007 3:41AM

For a restrike, it's fine. But I'm not sure it qualifies as a proof so to speak.

dcarr · June 18, 2007 3:47AM

Was this a Dickeson piece, circa 1860 ?

Right now on eBay I have a piece struck by Dickeson using the IDENTICAL obverse die, but with a different reverse die.
I don't intend this to be spam, but for my own education I would be interested in anyone's comments regarding my piece
in relation to Anaconda's:
Dickeson US Pattern, 1805 Bust Half Eagle, Breen

notwilight · June 18, 2007 3:59AM

<< It sounds like the real scoop is out - it's accurately graded. Remember, in matters of taste there can be no disageement. Finally, it would be really cool if you changed the title to something that isn't quite so disparaging - people who see the title but don't read the thread might think that we're offering an super overgraded coin. >>

Good suggestion made in a very polite manner.

numisma · June 18, 2007 4:39AM

<< Was this a Dickeson piece, circa 1860 ?

Right now on eBay I have a piece struck by Dickeson using the IDENTICAL obverse die, but with a different reverse die.
I don't intend this to be spam, but for my own education I would be interested in anyone's comments regarding my piece
in relation to Anaconda's:
Dickeson US Pattern, 1805 Bust Half Eagle, Breen >>

dcarr, you have three different Dickeson-type pieces on eBay and they all appear to be of the same "fabric", which is odd to me. Have you checked the edges for any signs of being electrotypes? I have similar pieces that look real, but are in fact electros. I have little experience in this area of numismatics and I am just asking the question. Hopefully some of the pattern experts will shed some light on the subject for all of us (Mr.Eureka, RKay, others).

ANACONDA · June 18, 2007 4:53AM

<< It sounds like the real scoop is out - it's accurately graded. Remember, in matters of taste there can be no disageement.

Finally, it would be really cool if you changed the title to something that isn't quite so disparaging - people who see the title but don't read the thread might think that we're offering an super overgraded coin. >>

the question - "Which real scoop are you referring to?"

the answer - the idea that the coin probably isn't overgraded

dcarr · June 18, 2007 5:15AM

<< 

<< Was this a Dickeson piece, circa 1860 ?

Right now on eBay I have a piece struck by Dickeson using the IDENTICAL obverse die, but with a different reverse die.
I don't intend this to be spam, but for my own education I would be interested in anyone's comments regarding my piece
in relation to Anaconda's:
Dickeson US Pattern, 1805 Bust Half Eagle, Breen >>

dcarr, you have three different Dickeson-type pieces on eBay and they all appear to be of the same "fabric", which is odd to me. Have you checked the edges for any signs of being electrotypes? I have similar pieces that look real, but are in fact electros. I have little experience in this area of numismatics and I am just asking the question. Hopefully some of the pattern experts will shed some light on the subject for all of us (Mr.Eureka, RKay, others). >>

Thanks for the suggestion. You had me a bit worried there for a minute. All three pieces have a very pronounced "ring" when lightly tapped on the edge. No signs of a seam. I will add close-up pictures of the edges to the auction listings. All three pieces are from the same source at about the same time, and they have likely been together ever since. So it is not unreasonable for them to have a similar appearance.

numisma · June 18, 2007 5:20AM

Dcarr, very cool items. I would to know more about them. Maybe you should start a thread just on those items to get the attention of the pattern pros.

CaptHenway · June 18, 2007 5:21AM

<< << It sounds like the real scoop is out - it's accurately graded. Remember, in matters of taste there can be no disageement.

Finally, it would be really cool if you changed the title to something that isn't quite so disparaging - people who see the title but don't read the thread might think that we're offering an super overgraded coin. >>

the question - "Which real scoop are you referring to?"

the answer - the idea that the coin probably isn't overgraded >>

I will agree that it may not be overgraded.
However, I respectfully believe that it is mis-attributed, as a Proof.
TD

Sunnywood · June 18, 2007 5:22AM

If this were either an off-alloy dies test, i.e. a legitimate pattern struck before the gold pieces, or if this were a restrike by the Mint made from dies in good condition, then the coin would be worth a good deal more. However, it is what it is ... a piece struck privately from crappy old rusted and/or defaced dies, that is nonetheless in excellent as-struck condition (for its age). Quite an oddity, actually.

A thing is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I love early patterns, but this item (which is neither a pattern, nor a legitimate restrike, nor an illegitimate Mint-made restrike) is of no interest to me whatsoever as a collector. It is of passing interest to see that such a thing exists, however, as a curiosity or a conversation piece. In fact, it has proven itself by generating good conversation here. But I'll keep my $40K. Others may no doubt feel differently.

I'm sure Anaconda will find a buyer. There's got to be someone out there collecting early Judd #'s who will just eat this thing up. I'm sure Adrian also appreciates Anaconda's current inventory being linked from this board, when it would otherwise belong over on BST !!

Best,
Sunnywood

oreville · June 18, 2007 11:11AM

I wish sadysta1 would also change the title of this thread.

Indeed, this piece is wierd looking, yet has a lot of history and reminds me of a pug dog. Not for me personally but there are many out there who just loves these!

ModernCrapNut · June 18, 2007 11:24AM

Some people eat cut up bovines, some cut up squid. Let's let each other enjoy what we wish.

Sorry Anaconda, but this is the most overgraded coin I've ever seen

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