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Help! 1815 $5 Gold, Father in Law, $35K-$40K, Help!
karpman9
Posts: 309 ✭✭
Hello,
Over the last four years or so my father in law has taken a real shine to purchasing mostly common date gold at just above melt. He has had a relationship with a local coin dealer for over thirty years and they are friends, social friends. The dealer's main business is stamps but since he lives in a VERY affluent area of the country, a good deal of gold coins walk in the door almost every day, especially since gold moved higher a few years ago. Many of the coins that are brought in are common date Saints. The dealer let's my father in law cherry pick the best ones that walk in the door, avg grade MS62 (range of 58-64) and sells them to him at a fair and modest increase over spot or if slabbed, a 10% increase on what he paid for them. Often times my father in law will buy anywhere up to 30 Saints at a given time, mentioned here so you the reader understand the scope of his purchasing and the relationship a bit better.
We live in different states so I was highly dubious of the dealer's motives when I first joined the family and met him, but my father in law has given him at least a couple hundered thousand dolalrs in stamp business over the last 30 years and based on the information I receive about what coins my father in law buys and at what prices he buys them at, I am less concerned these days but still cautious about the dealer. I have my feelings about the stamps, but that's his choice and if it makes or made him happy in the past, that's his business. However, since I married his daughter about five years ago, and brought my passion and some humble degree of expertise in collecting and investing in coins to his attention, he followed suit and went full throttle in purchasing the type of coins I mentioned above. To his credit, he keeps me in the loop before he purchases anything including the common date Saints or the like. He knows that I subscribe to the Greysheet, have built an very nice above average collection, and have good relationships with the handful of national coin dealers, that most of us here on the boards know of, that can be trusted.
So here we are, last week, my father in-law calls me and says this dealer has an 1815 $5 gold piece that looks VF/XF that just walked in the door, and was purchased and is now over at darkside for certification and grading. In advance of the coin being in hand, graded and certified by ngc, a price of about $35-40K is being tossed around. That's pretty big money to me, and I know it will easily be the most expensive single coin he will have ever purchased if the deal consumates. It's a coin that rarely trades hands due to its rarity and is one of the key dates within the early gold $5 series.
Even if the coin, which I have yet to see, comes back graded VF30/35 by ngc and I/we determine that the market grade assigned is reasonable and it doesn't look played with, etc, etc., I can't help but think of so many other coins I'd prefer him to purchase for the same $35-40K.
So my concern is three fold. First, that he is putting a great deal of eggs ($$$) into one basket containing one obscure but rare gold coin that may when it's time to sell, appeal only to a VERY thin market of buyers who may or may not want to purchase when he wants to sell or may not like his example. Secondly, my concern is the veracity of the dealer on such a high priced coin. When he sells him non common date coins he charges a percentage above what he paid. I've been told by my father in law that this dealer's markup is steady at 10%, but again I'm dubious. Lastly, I'm concerned that the $35-40K could and should be much better spent in other coins like more commonly collected key dates, maybe an assortment of higher grade 18/7-D Buff, 16-D Merc, 16 SLQ, 55 DDO, 93 S, or even cooler in my mind with good upside as well is to spend it on higher graded coins from 1794-1807, Flowing Hair or Drapped bust silver or draped bust gold.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. I wish I had a photo, but I don't. The information I presented is all based on my father in law's comments. I tried to call the dealer to get the facts directly from him but he is on vacation for the long weekend.
Thanks in advance for your input.
Over the last four years or so my father in law has taken a real shine to purchasing mostly common date gold at just above melt. He has had a relationship with a local coin dealer for over thirty years and they are friends, social friends. The dealer's main business is stamps but since he lives in a VERY affluent area of the country, a good deal of gold coins walk in the door almost every day, especially since gold moved higher a few years ago. Many of the coins that are brought in are common date Saints. The dealer let's my father in law cherry pick the best ones that walk in the door, avg grade MS62 (range of 58-64) and sells them to him at a fair and modest increase over spot or if slabbed, a 10% increase on what he paid for them. Often times my father in law will buy anywhere up to 30 Saints at a given time, mentioned here so you the reader understand the scope of his purchasing and the relationship a bit better.
We live in different states so I was highly dubious of the dealer's motives when I first joined the family and met him, but my father in law has given him at least a couple hundered thousand dolalrs in stamp business over the last 30 years and based on the information I receive about what coins my father in law buys and at what prices he buys them at, I am less concerned these days but still cautious about the dealer. I have my feelings about the stamps, but that's his choice and if it makes or made him happy in the past, that's his business. However, since I married his daughter about five years ago, and brought my passion and some humble degree of expertise in collecting and investing in coins to his attention, he followed suit and went full throttle in purchasing the type of coins I mentioned above. To his credit, he keeps me in the loop before he purchases anything including the common date Saints or the like. He knows that I subscribe to the Greysheet, have built an very nice above average collection, and have good relationships with the handful of national coin dealers, that most of us here on the boards know of, that can be trusted.
So here we are, last week, my father in-law calls me and says this dealer has an 1815 $5 gold piece that looks VF/XF that just walked in the door, and was purchased and is now over at darkside for certification and grading. In advance of the coin being in hand, graded and certified by ngc, a price of about $35-40K is being tossed around. That's pretty big money to me, and I know it will easily be the most expensive single coin he will have ever purchased if the deal consumates. It's a coin that rarely trades hands due to its rarity and is one of the key dates within the early gold $5 series.
Even if the coin, which I have yet to see, comes back graded VF30/35 by ngc and I/we determine that the market grade assigned is reasonable and it doesn't look played with, etc, etc., I can't help but think of so many other coins I'd prefer him to purchase for the same $35-40K.
So my concern is three fold. First, that he is putting a great deal of eggs ($$$) into one basket containing one obscure but rare gold coin that may when it's time to sell, appeal only to a VERY thin market of buyers who may or may not want to purchase when he wants to sell or may not like his example. Secondly, my concern is the veracity of the dealer on such a high priced coin. When he sells him non common date coins he charges a percentage above what he paid. I've been told by my father in law that this dealer's markup is steady at 10%, but again I'm dubious. Lastly, I'm concerned that the $35-40K could and should be much better spent in other coins like more commonly collected key dates, maybe an assortment of higher grade 18/7-D Buff, 16-D Merc, 16 SLQ, 55 DDO, 93 S, or even cooler in my mind with good upside as well is to spend it on higher graded coins from 1794-1807, Flowing Hair or Drapped bust silver or draped bust gold.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. I wish I had a photo, but I don't. The information I presented is all based on my father in law's comments. I tried to call the dealer to get the facts directly from him but he is on vacation for the long weekend.
Thanks in advance for your input.
Jeff.K. Karp
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
0
Comments
On another note, if a coin that rare is floating around "raw," chances are that the coin is fake, cleaned, expertly repaired, or damaged, and therefore won't grade at NGC anyway. There will be no issue if that happens, so wait and see.
Edited to say "1815" instead of "1915"
A person can walk into any major show and often find a dozen to a hundred examples of each of the key dates listed (18/7-D Buff, 16-D Merc, 16 SLQ, 55 DDO, 93 S). Try and find an 1815 half eagle. There probably won't be any, and if there is one, it will most likely be priced much higher and/or be of lower quality than the one your dad is being offered. An easy decision in my mind--if dad likes it, buy it. Fresh coins to the market often get flipped five times between dealers before finding a long term home with a collector.
No one knows which coins will go up (or down) in value in the coming years. While $40,000 is a substantial amount of money, it doesn't sound like this is all the money the person has.
The dealer would be a fool and a real jerk, to mess with one of his best customers. If the dealer is pulling a fast one, and the customer finds out, the dealer just lost one of his very best customers. Now if the customer was someone new to the hobby, just off the street, a lot of dealers would be tempted to take advantage.
>>>My Collection
Russ, NCNE
easy, melt plus 400 dollars. i would guess no more then a 1000
bucks. ;-)
<< <i>I don't know why you would want him to pass up buying a true rarity to buy "blue-collar" key dates instead. The 1915 half eagle is exactly the kind of coin that probably will earn a profit for the owner within a few years, even if the market for them is thin. 11 known? Early gold? Sounds like great stuff to me. Of course, I can see why anyone might be slightly nervous with a family member paying $35 to $40 k for a coin, regardless of what it is.
On another note, if a coin that rare is floating around "raw," chances are that the coin is fake, cleaned, expertly repaired, or damaged, and therefore won't grade at NGC anyway. There will be no issue if that happens, so wait and see. >>
Rhedden, I like your points very much. I also appreciate that you and others who responded, sense my anxiety over the potential high dollar purchase. And keep in mind, he's my father in law and I want to do right by him. If things turned bad, I'd feel horrible and somewhat partialy accountable.
Many thanks to those who responsed.
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
just tell your father to sell a fistful of gold ounces to cover the
more expensive coin.
no need to shell out all cash, when you have common gold coins
sitting in a drawer.
would it be of yours? He's been handling coins since before you were a gleam in your mom's eyes. Back
off and let the old man do what he wants and pay attention, because he might just know a bit more than
you!
lol
bob
There's 11 known, and if he can stomach the price, then he should go for it! If I had the money, I would buy the coin in a heartbeat. Rarity, beauty, antiquity, all combined into a single coin.
GO FOR IT!
To support LordM's European Trip, click here!
<< <i>If my son-in-law tried to influence what coins I buy he'd be out of the will in a heartbeat. What business
would it be of yours? He's been handling coins since before you were a gleam in your mom's eyes. Back
off and let the old man do what he wants and pay attention, because he might just know a bit more than
you!
lol
bob >>
BOB, You must not have read my post accurately. He asked me to help. I never so much as mentioned any concern other than that of authenticity and originality. I have never suggested he buy any coin or type of coin, ever. That's his business. I'm glad that we share a love of coins together. He asked me to do some research on the coin so I did. He requested my due diligence and part of the due diligence was posting here to get a few opinions. I'm excited for him and this opportunity based on the repsonses and I think it's fantastic that he can afford whatever he wants. But thanks anyway BOB.
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
I agree with others who have responded to your post...particularly the comments made by rhedden. If the coin is genuine and slabbed by NGC, then it's a wonderful coin to own for the true collector. I also really like fc's suggestion that your father in law use some of his common date gold to pay for the purchase of this great rarity.
I will be very interested in hearing how this story unfolds...as will others I'm sure.
<< <i>Depending on your relationship with your father in law....since he did ask for your help, I think you should share all of your concerns with him as part of your due dilligence. But, after an informed discussion of these concerns, you should respect the fact that the final decision is his.
I agree with others who have responded to your post...particularly the comments made by rhedden. If the coin is genuine and slabbed by NGC, then it's a wonderful coin to own for the true collector. I also really like fc's suggestion that your father in law use some of his common date gold to pay for the purchase of this great rarity.
I will be very interested in hearing how this story unfolds...as will others I'm sure.
Thanks MidLife,
I am very excited for my father in law. Especially after reading the responses to this post. I so hope it all works out. I am thrilled to be a part of his opportunity, yet cautiously reserved about the final outcome as far as authenticity and the final price. Most people on this board gave me good opinions and they were consistent. I appreciate that very much.
I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
ok............... ok............. it was just a joke.
If and only if he asks for your opinion, should you give it. That would be quite a nice coin to add to any collection.
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>NGC is not the darkside >>
It's called ATS (Across The Street).
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>NGC is not the darkside >>
It's called ATS (Across The Street). >>
Thanks for the correction!
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
I pray that the coin comes back authentic, uncleaned and in great condition. Best of luck.
Predictions in 10 years for this coin. I'm going to guess that this coin could fetch $250,000 in the affirmentioned condition of about VF-30+
Not an erronious values since the population is just more than twice the 1913 nickel and MUCH MUCH less than many other KEY dates with a larger surviving population.
Good Luck and keep us posted on the results.
One of the holy grails of circ gold. And a coin one could probably not pay too much for initially. The odds of a legit circ 1804 dollar walking in the store is probably higher.
roadrunner
My bet is that the coin isn't genuine.
BTW, most of these are accounted for. It's highly unlikely a new coin has been discovered.
<< <i>If my son-in-law tried to influence what coins I buy he'd be out of the will in a heartbeat. What business would it be of yours? He's been handling coins since before you were a gleam in your mom's eyes. Back off and let the old man do what he wants and pay attention, because he might just know a bit more than you! lol bob >>
Sounds a little harsh but I can't help but agree.
Frankly, the tone of the OP sounds meddling. I also disagree with the suggested alternative purchases.
--jerry
<< <i>If a problem free example, $75k seems about right in this market. It would be a screaming bargain at the price quoted! >>
I agree with TDN. Even with problems, the price is reasonable. And I would be happy to buy it and give you a real nice profit. BTW, some copies have come out recently of the 1815 $5, hope this one doesn't have that word "COPY" on the reverse.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Is it that hard to read what he ACTUALLY posted? I think this is a situation where you guys who accuse him of meddling aren't reading what is posted but what you are projecting a bit.
Swest
Your talking about a real numismatic treasure here.
A recent auction of a gold coin that has similar rarity could give an indication of potential value: In ANR's C. L. Lee sale 9/05, an 1854-S quarter eagle NGC EF45 sold for $253,000. Pedigrees and auction records were cited in the description, and the conclusion was that 10 were known to exist of the 1854-S.
If authentic, I would bet the 1815 $5 would sell at auction for six figures. Exciting story!
edit - I vaguely remember an 1815 $5 at auction within the last few years, but can't remember where (none listed at Heritage) Can anyone find the last auction results for an 1815 $5?
<< <i>Information on the 1815 $5 can be found on CoinFacts on the PCGS website. In John Dannreuther's new book on early US gold varieties, he states that 12-14 examples are known, at least 4 are in museums. At one time the 1815 $5 was considered to be more rare than the 1822 $5 (three known).
A recent auction of a gold coin that has similar rarity could give an indication of potential value: In ANR's C. L. Lee sale 9/05, an 1854-S quarter eagle NGC EF45 sold for $253,000. Pedigrees and auction records were cited in the description, and the conclusion was that 10 were known to exist of the 1854-S.
If authentic, I would bet the 1815 $5 would sell at auction for six figures. Exciting story!
edit - I vaguely remember an 1815 $5 at auction within the last few years, but can't remember where (none listed at Heritage) Can anyone find the last auction results for an 1815 $5? >>
There's one in the ANR/Stack's archives (ANR 12-03:938, AU50 for $107,525), and one in the Goldberg archives also (6-2000:1306, MS62 apparently unsold). There might be one more in the Goldberg archives but I didn't look that much.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>There's one in the ANR/Stack's archives (ANR 12-03:938, AU50 for $107,525), and one in the Goldberg archives also (6-2000:1306, MS62 apparently unsold >>
Aegis3 - Thanks for looking up the auction information!
With a reported mintage of 635 pieces, the 1815 $5 could have mislead many people ast to its true rarity. Compare that to the 17,796 minted for the 1822 $5. The same misconceptions are often being applied to bust, seated, Barber, and other series as well.
It's not how many were minted but how many have survived.
roadrunner