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Market Report---First Show Set-Up (Long)
DRUNNER
Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
( The promised (or dreaded) followup to last week's "Market Report" from the SLC show. ) If you just want market perceptions, drop down about 6 paragraphs . . .
Overall, not really a focused piece of writing, but the purpose in my first dealer set-up experience was to see the "other side of the table" and then to put up a post with a certain degree of originality based on current market market trends and what I learned from the event.
As FlyFishGuy has already posted, it is a 40 table, 25 dealer 2-day show that has a cozy feel and good location in the southern end of the SL valley. Many locals with a semi-tired inventory and always a few who can spice things up (McIntosh from CA, Richardson from ID, and Butternut were among the notables). As already mentioned, our ANA President Mr. Horton and the Executive Director of the ANA, Mr. Chris Cipoletti were on hand to assist ex. ANA President Bob Campbell in the check presentation concerning the Allgood incident, then they circulated for a while. Nice to have them and kudos to all who donated/assisted in the event.
Now my perceptions . . . personal and of course subject to my individual biases and local conditions.
OK. Setting up for a show and doing it is a blast. Unconditionally. Add to it the amount of learning packed into 2 days and it's like coins on steroids. I'd recommend it to any collector, although I could quickly see how it might be a drag doing it every weekend. You soon learn why dealers at shows both big and small leave early . . . once the romance is gone you won't blame them, even though you may not like to see them do it. My first big shock was how tough it was to determine what I would use to stock my cases. I've spent 10 years searching for eye appeal in the series that I collect and every piece is personal . . .so to choose dupes (coins, not buyers) I would sell, then value them was an interesting challenge. I was in a quandary . . .
My own passion for the hobby just won't allow me to stock a case with schlocky generic 'stuff'. I don't buy it, so I don't have to worry about owning or selling it. BUT . . . that also means I have a limited inventory. No one was going to see my "A game" stuff (personal collection). . . but they also were not going to see generic, so I was left with an eclectic inventory. In defense of the standard 'dealer' . . they are bound to have that type of generic stuff as they buy everything if the price is right. No problems at all . . . and I'm very glad they do. Still, the days leading up to Friday were fraught with decision making, and now in some cases, I know I have seller's remorse, knowing that a few choice pieces, although not my best, won't be in my hands any longer. To avoid the BST police, I will keep the inventory descriptions intentionally vague, even though I sold the stuff.
Preparation is key. I had time (just 'retired' from teaching and am sitting a mandatory 6-month period before I can re-apply for my job --- good deal here in my State --- still coaching though) so I was meticulous. Bought my own lights, had extension cords, Windex, drinks, snacks, you name it. Got there at the first minute of dealer set-up and had extra stuff for the unprepared guys around me. Got off on the right foot at least. Like packing a first aid kit for the track team . . . I took emergency supplies for inventory accounting and preparation. The dealer who originally was going to share a table with me dropped out . . . so I recruited another passionate collector and friend to staff the table with me. Still had to pay the full boat myself, but had good friendship.
My decisions on pricing were simple . . . INTENSE preparation. As some material was difficult to price (toned for example) I spent days on Teletrade, Heritage, and the 'bay. Then I evaluated what I was "in" on the coin and came up with a number. I did it planning on selling . . . I can't understand why a dealer will overprice stuff just looking for that one sucker 3 years down the road who will finally take a piece out of his cracked 20-pocket page and haggle with him. Oh well . . . just me I guess. Overall . . . I was probably low. OK . . . good learning experience. I do this for fun . . . I probably need to test the price-resistance level a little more, but by purchasing right, I never had any qualms about the profits I was making.
10:00am Friday was the start. You were right . . . the first day a few dealers came by early and each bought according to his specialty. Some grabbed keys . . . some grabbed common 'pretty' stuff, but through it all, I watched for several "plants" I had placed to test exactly how much people paid attention. I placed 10 1961 proof Washingtons front and center at $1.50 each . . . 6 times melt when melt was 9.5. They lasted until Saturday when a notable dealer came by and thought I had lost it. Fair guy . . .and he was stunned. They sat all Friday and he actually paid "up" for them (OK . . they were generic schlock!) at $2 each. Also was in a nice key date piece really right . . . priced it about $200 below all the identical grades on Teletrade, and below bid as well. Placed it in the case. Picked up by another dealer on Saturday and he helped on the test. He said "Watch how this sells at my table . . . part of the deal is WHERE the coin is located and with WHOM. He was right . . .after sitting in my case for over a day, it sold for MORE in his case within an hour. He was a specialist in that series.
Friday collector sales were running about 1/5th of the dealer sales. No wonder dealers hit the set-up time hard and then spin their wheels for days on end with collectors. The 6 or 7 top pieces all sold to dealers on that day.
Saturday was even more frenzied. I sold 50% of my total volume within an hour to dealers who had seemed to get the message "Hey . . . go see what the new guy has!" It slowed during the day and then picked up in the last hour as the hubbies who got 'green-lighted' to spend by the wife decided they didn't want to go home empty-handed. FUN talking with the collectors . . . did some appraisals for free (ANA connections and I feel obligated to do them anyway). . . and got hit up by my fist vest-pocket guy trying to sell. We actually did some business . . . and I think we were both happy.
Overall impressions:
---It's hard to sell to guys you normally deal with as a collector. I want to go too cheap.
---Dealers at shows are an interesting 'brotherhood'. Not that I am (or will be) a part, but I envy their mutual joys and sufferings. It's just like a track team in a lot of respects.
---Regretfully, I won't be doing this a lot . . . it took my a decade to build up enough quality to want to show it. But who knows???
---Pay attention at a show as a collector. Small things like case organization and lighting go a long way. You also better get to know the ropes about etiquette.
---Some of the stuff YOU find VERY collectable and serious (for me, certified Jeffs fit that description) is totally irrelevant in the collecting world. Get used to sitting on it.
---Pay attention to what sells if you ever plan to sit behind a table.
What sells?
---Keys. (Oh really?)
---Gonzo toning and superior eye appeal.
---Nice type. Anything circulated in a PCGS holder (my 57 Flyer in XF was the first coin out . . .and dealers actually talked about it off and on for hours).
---Original surfaces. (A second "Oh really?)
---Mercs, trade dollars, trade tokens. I struck out on all three but could have sold all I had.
What doesn't?
---Eclectic stuff (holder errors, Oberwise & Meghrig boards, error coins, etc.)
---Generic. My toned Buffs flew out. My lone BU Buff languished.
---Toning people don't believe (whether in a holder or not). Yeah . . . I think some of those coins have had a damaged reputation caused by a few recent incidents.
OK, this was waaaaaaaay too long. But . . . a fun experience. Learned a lot . . . had a riot . . .and will do it again sometime.
You now have permission to resume work.
Drunner
Overall, not really a focused piece of writing, but the purpose in my first dealer set-up experience was to see the "other side of the table" and then to put up a post with a certain degree of originality based on current market market trends and what I learned from the event.
As FlyFishGuy has already posted, it is a 40 table, 25 dealer 2-day show that has a cozy feel and good location in the southern end of the SL valley. Many locals with a semi-tired inventory and always a few who can spice things up (McIntosh from CA, Richardson from ID, and Butternut were among the notables). As already mentioned, our ANA President Mr. Horton and the Executive Director of the ANA, Mr. Chris Cipoletti were on hand to assist ex. ANA President Bob Campbell in the check presentation concerning the Allgood incident, then they circulated for a while. Nice to have them and kudos to all who donated/assisted in the event.
Now my perceptions . . . personal and of course subject to my individual biases and local conditions.
OK. Setting up for a show and doing it is a blast. Unconditionally. Add to it the amount of learning packed into 2 days and it's like coins on steroids. I'd recommend it to any collector, although I could quickly see how it might be a drag doing it every weekend. You soon learn why dealers at shows both big and small leave early . . . once the romance is gone you won't blame them, even though you may not like to see them do it. My first big shock was how tough it was to determine what I would use to stock my cases. I've spent 10 years searching for eye appeal in the series that I collect and every piece is personal . . .so to choose dupes (coins, not buyers) I would sell, then value them was an interesting challenge. I was in a quandary . . .
My own passion for the hobby just won't allow me to stock a case with schlocky generic 'stuff'. I don't buy it, so I don't have to worry about owning or selling it. BUT . . . that also means I have a limited inventory. No one was going to see my "A game" stuff (personal collection). . . but they also were not going to see generic, so I was left with an eclectic inventory. In defense of the standard 'dealer' . . they are bound to have that type of generic stuff as they buy everything if the price is right. No problems at all . . . and I'm very glad they do. Still, the days leading up to Friday were fraught with decision making, and now in some cases, I know I have seller's remorse, knowing that a few choice pieces, although not my best, won't be in my hands any longer. To avoid the BST police, I will keep the inventory descriptions intentionally vague, even though I sold the stuff.
Preparation is key. I had time (just 'retired' from teaching and am sitting a mandatory 6-month period before I can re-apply for my job --- good deal here in my State --- still coaching though) so I was meticulous. Bought my own lights, had extension cords, Windex, drinks, snacks, you name it. Got there at the first minute of dealer set-up and had extra stuff for the unprepared guys around me. Got off on the right foot at least. Like packing a first aid kit for the track team . . . I took emergency supplies for inventory accounting and preparation. The dealer who originally was going to share a table with me dropped out . . . so I recruited another passionate collector and friend to staff the table with me. Still had to pay the full boat myself, but had good friendship.
My decisions on pricing were simple . . . INTENSE preparation. As some material was difficult to price (toned for example) I spent days on Teletrade, Heritage, and the 'bay. Then I evaluated what I was "in" on the coin and came up with a number. I did it planning on selling . . . I can't understand why a dealer will overprice stuff just looking for that one sucker 3 years down the road who will finally take a piece out of his cracked 20-pocket page and haggle with him. Oh well . . . just me I guess. Overall . . . I was probably low. OK . . . good learning experience. I do this for fun . . . I probably need to test the price-resistance level a little more, but by purchasing right, I never had any qualms about the profits I was making.
10:00am Friday was the start. You were right . . . the first day a few dealers came by early and each bought according to his specialty. Some grabbed keys . . . some grabbed common 'pretty' stuff, but through it all, I watched for several "plants" I had placed to test exactly how much people paid attention. I placed 10 1961 proof Washingtons front and center at $1.50 each . . . 6 times melt when melt was 9.5. They lasted until Saturday when a notable dealer came by and thought I had lost it. Fair guy . . .and he was stunned. They sat all Friday and he actually paid "up" for them (OK . . they were generic schlock!) at $2 each. Also was in a nice key date piece really right . . . priced it about $200 below all the identical grades on Teletrade, and below bid as well. Placed it in the case. Picked up by another dealer on Saturday and he helped on the test. He said "Watch how this sells at my table . . . part of the deal is WHERE the coin is located and with WHOM. He was right . . .after sitting in my case for over a day, it sold for MORE in his case within an hour. He was a specialist in that series.
Friday collector sales were running about 1/5th of the dealer sales. No wonder dealers hit the set-up time hard and then spin their wheels for days on end with collectors. The 6 or 7 top pieces all sold to dealers on that day.
Saturday was even more frenzied. I sold 50% of my total volume within an hour to dealers who had seemed to get the message "Hey . . . go see what the new guy has!" It slowed during the day and then picked up in the last hour as the hubbies who got 'green-lighted' to spend by the wife decided they didn't want to go home empty-handed. FUN talking with the collectors . . . did some appraisals for free (ANA connections and I feel obligated to do them anyway). . . and got hit up by my fist vest-pocket guy trying to sell. We actually did some business . . . and I think we were both happy.
Overall impressions:
---It's hard to sell to guys you normally deal with as a collector. I want to go too cheap.
---Dealers at shows are an interesting 'brotherhood'. Not that I am (or will be) a part, but I envy their mutual joys and sufferings. It's just like a track team in a lot of respects.
---Regretfully, I won't be doing this a lot . . . it took my a decade to build up enough quality to want to show it. But who knows???
---Pay attention at a show as a collector. Small things like case organization and lighting go a long way. You also better get to know the ropes about etiquette.
---Some of the stuff YOU find VERY collectable and serious (for me, certified Jeffs fit that description) is totally irrelevant in the collecting world. Get used to sitting on it.
---Pay attention to what sells if you ever plan to sit behind a table.
What sells?
---Keys. (Oh really?)
---Gonzo toning and superior eye appeal.
---Nice type. Anything circulated in a PCGS holder (my 57 Flyer in XF was the first coin out . . .and dealers actually talked about it off and on for hours).
---Original surfaces. (A second "Oh really?)
---Mercs, trade dollars, trade tokens. I struck out on all three but could have sold all I had.
What doesn't?
---Eclectic stuff (holder errors, Oberwise & Meghrig boards, error coins, etc.)
---Generic. My toned Buffs flew out. My lone BU Buff languished.
---Toning people don't believe (whether in a holder or not). Yeah . . . I think some of those coins have had a damaged reputation caused by a few recent incidents.
OK, this was waaaaaaaay too long. But . . . a fun experience. Learned a lot . . . had a riot . . .and will do it again sometime.
You now have permission to resume work.
Drunner
0
Comments
There is nothing like selling for cash to get a true view of the market.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
its easy to sell the good stuff....
the problem is there is not much good stuff to restock up again with...
I agree, many serious collectors should try the "other side of the table", at least once. For one thing, it lets you "wear the other person's moccasins". Secondly, there is a lot of learning that you will get. You may think you know the market if all you are doing is buying, but you will really get to know the market if you are selling. Picking the right show is important for the first-timer; Drunner did this by picking a 40 table show with an active dealer and collector base. For your first show, you should not try a huge 300 table show! Also, partnering is good. You might not have enough for 4 cases, but maybe you and a friend can each fill 2 cases. It also helps to have an assistant so one of you can man the table while the other scouts out the other tables, runs for food, bathroom breaks, etc.
What you put into your case is important. Drunner did a good job including a variety of items that would appeal to a variety of buyers. I once saw a table where the dealer had basically nothing but Ike dollars. Not meant to offend Ike dollar fans, but it is somewhat of a specialized area and what happens if the Ike collectors don't attend that show? Drunner also talks about "planted" coins, which are particularly good buys to induce customers to examine everything in the case, sort of like a store's "loss leaders"; it's a good idea to have a couple of these that will or should draw interest, but they shouldn't be so obscure that people won't notice that they are good buys.
Leaving early or not? I'm not predisposed to leave early but it depends on my personal schedule. But I have done a bunch of deals late in the show, particularly with collectors, and some of these collectors are now good repeat customers. But I do understand why dealers who are doing 30 or more shows a year would often want to leave early.
Drunner emphasizes the importance of good preparation. Think of everything you might need including extra bulbs for your lights, extension cords, a cooler if you bring lunch or beverages, business cards, your inventory list, your pricing and grading guides, invoices, change incl. currency and quarters, magnifying glasses, "SOLD" signs to fill in holes in your display as you sell coins, extra flips, your cases (local shows you generally must supply your own cases, bigger national shows they usually supply the cases), and your cart to carry all of this stuff. A friendly personality helps, too.
Pricing: Drunner talks about his intense preparation on pricing. Pricing is one of the most difficult things to do as a dealer. You can't do it in a vacuum or merely apply an arbitrary rule like mark up everything 20% over what you paid. Research the exact or similar items that have sold recently, use eBay, Teletrade, auction archives, and other sources. If you have an item or two you're unsure of, you can ask another dealer, but don't expect another dealer to price your inventory. Coins that are rare or have major eye appeal will justify premium prices, generic items you will have to be at or under prevailing market levels. If everyone else has the 20th Anniversary SAE sets at $250, yours won't sell at $275.
Drunner, thanks again for a great report and a super primer for someone new to setting up a table at a coin show!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
One solution is to buy a lot of stuff and you get a little wheat with the chaff, but you have to learn who to sell the chaff to quickly for profit (hopefully), and keep inventory moving. This brings up the point that the dealers that seem to have the best business sense, know what level of coins they want to deal in, and know the other dealers out there and who buys and sells various types of coins. I have seen expert dealers in action and they know the whole market system very well and work it to their advantage. Thus, if someone has coins to sell that include what you deal in, you can try to buy just those coins, or make an offer for the whole deal and know where to move the coins you don't want right away.
Interesting post and responses.
How did the seated stuff sell? Especially the seated half dimes of course
Dennis
Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
MD
I could not agree more on inventory . . . replacing good stuff has been talked to death on these boards, but wow, it took me about a decade of trying to buy and learn just to stock one quality small show.
The professional dealer who does this week in and week out for years has my undying respect. I don't care if they travel in a 94 Ford van or private jet . . . they have a demanding life. I'll never look at the other side of the table the same way. Of course, I'll still try to beat them like a rented mule to get a better price . . . but what the heck, it happened to me!
I think it does take one more intangible. I had a lot of fun and got a few comments that it was infectious. Got two offers to share tables at future shows and some great words from dealers I respect. I think you can divide the guys (and one or two gals) up into two categories; those who have fun (or try) and those who don't. I DO believe it affects sales. My biggest problem was getting them away from the table after the sale so someone else could look. We had a blast . . .
I'm going to get back to what my passion is . . . collecting. Never wanna be a wannabe. I DO envy those of you who do this full time and enjoy what you do . . . you have a great life.
Need any marathoning help? I'm not a wannabe there!
Thanks again for the comments
Drunner
<< <i> ---Pay attention at a show as a collector. Small things like case organization and lighting go a long way. You also better get to know the ropes about etiquette. >>
I've considered the possibility of setting up at a local show one of these days and I'm curious about this- is there a different etiquette expected of dealers than that expected of buyers? Any explanation or discussion would be appreciated- thanks!
Thanks for the post.
(1) It is a lot easier to sell to dealers than collectors. Dealers are more confident about spending significant money.
(2) You can't sell expensive guns in some places.
(3) The same people and dealers are at every show so after a few shows you don't have fresh material anymore.
(4) I'd hate to do this for a living even though it's fun.
(5) You encounter some real ethical problems that test you, like when someone wants to trade or sell you a gun. For example SOP is to ask "what do you want for it ?". What if they say $2,000 for a gun you know is worth much more ? The thing is guns that cost more than a few hundred are hard to sell so even if the gun is worth more you might not be able to sell it for years. Often someone needs money and most dealers are reluctant to put out money unless they can steal it so you can buy "right".
(6) 8 foot tables only cost about $75. Much less than coin shows.
(7) I wanted to sell, not buy, so I only bought guns I wanted.
(8) There are guns to shoot and guns for collectors. It is real important to understand this distinction. Collectors want mint guns and will pay just about anything if you have the right gun.
(9) It used to take a lifetime of traveling to shows to put together a collection but the internet changed everything.
Very funny qualifier!
Thanks for sharing your experience....
David
Thank you.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>
<< <i> ---Pay attention at a show as a collector. Small things like case organization and lighting go a long way. You also better get to know the ropes about etiquette. >>
I've considered the possibility of setting up at a local show one of these days and I'm curious about this- is there a different etiquette expected of dealers than that expected of buyers? Any explanation or discussion would be appreciated- thanks! >>
Giving this a bump to try and get an answer to the question about etiquette for dealers vs. collectors at shows.
Just saw this back up . . . brought up fun memories!
Some off-beat rememberances . . . not really all 'etiquette' though:
1. I love to talk coins . . . I just had to make sure the guys I was talking to weren't taking chairs or blocking the view of the dealer's inventory next to me.
2. Make sure you most definitely want to sell anything that is out. I had a 2 wildly toned PCGS coins that I probably never should have taken to the show and sold both to another dealer . . . then had 'seller's remorse' for the rest of the day. Still do.
3. Several dealers near me really weren't prepared. I had back-up lights, bulbs, and cords to loan. Not really 'etiquette', but I think it helped the 'newbie' to get along.
4. I was very careful to not 'talk down' anyone else's inventory. I had good stuff and let it speak for itself . . and when someone brought a coin to me for an opinion, I was honest but positive.
5. I am a professional in my real life . . and I wanted to be here too. So . . .when someone came to me for an opinion (one guy brought an original (YES) roll of 1880-S Morgans) I gave it to them. I felt it was my responsibility to represent the hobby and the other dealers in the best light possible. (The roll had one shot-67 in it but the rest were decent 63-64 stuff.)
6. I didn't hesitate to call BS with a customer though. One guy tried to tell me Teletrade sales on a high-grade Jeff were way below my price, so I pulled out a spreadsheet of every Teletrade sale of every certified piece I had. It was $25 cheaper than the ONLY Jeff of it's type sold in the last 2 years . . . but he was too embarrassed to purchase at that point. Perhaps my loss?
7. Have a business card available if you plan on doing more shows.
Customer etiquette?
---I guess if you really have no desire to purchase anything at all, move along and let someone else look.
---Know what you want. Ask for it. If you just want to search stock boxes . . . OK, just say so.
---Try to pay in a convenient manner. Stock options, Yap money, and bartering lawn care services aren't convenient.
---Smile. Have a little fun. Ask questions. Lighten up. It's a coin show, not Celebrity DeathMatch.
---Try not to make too much of a mess out of the case . . . some of us are neat freaks.
OK . . . maybe not what you wanted, but it'll take the thread to the top for another 30 minutes . .
Drunner
roadrunner
Excellent post and report. I really enjoyed reading it. Sounds like you had a blast.
Thanks!!
Rick
Should have known better than to bump this thread at midnight.
This is a very interesting thread, IMO. Anyone else have comments about etiquette, setting up at shows, etc.?
I'm thinking of doing a local show and this just pushed me over the top......
Thanks
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Excellent what?
Was the weather excellent at some point last year?
Nice show report and all...I had not read it before...but i'm a little confused.
Isn't this a zombie thread? What is the reason to dig it up? Did I miss something?
If anything...this thread makes me even happier as a buyer at these shows! No better place to buy in my opinion.
Selling looks like _hard_ work.