1825 - The 12th Informative Picture Thread on the Capped Bust Half Dollar Series:
DNADave
Posts: 7,286 ✭✭✭✭✭
According to the 3rd Edition of Overton:
There were 2,943,166 halves minted in 1825 using 15 obverse and 16 reverse dies. Thirty-one die marriages are recognized now with the one pictured below being O-105 (To the best of my knowledge).
O-105 has the ITE joined at the top and ED strongly joined at the bottom. I'll have to applogize for my pictures, I know they do not meet the standard of quality that has been the normal in this series of threads.
The coin below is strongly doubled (tripled at some points) along the front of Liberty's face. As a point of discussion, I believe this is mechanical doubling but would like to hear some more comments about doubled profiles in the Capped bust halves. It seems pretty common.
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HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
There were 2,943,166 halves minted in 1825 using 15 obverse and 16 reverse dies. Thirty-one die marriages are recognized now with the one pictured below being O-105 (To the best of my knowledge).
O-105 has the ITE joined at the top and ED strongly joined at the bottom. I'll have to applogize for my pictures, I know they do not meet the standard of quality that has been the normal in this series of threads.
The coin below is strongly doubled (tripled at some points) along the front of Liberty's face. As a point of discussion, I believe this is mechanical doubling but would like to hear some more comments about doubled profiles in the Capped bust halves. It seems pretty common.
.HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
0
Comments
Thanks for starting this thread.
Some diagnostics for 1825 O-106A R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. “5” is recut showing at underside of curved top. Mouth is open.
Reverse: Arrowheads are close, and upper one nearly touches “A”. Many crossbars extend into right wing. “RI” close, with “R” higher at base. “I” centered under left side of “T”.
more than acceptable.
stripes are mostly solid. I bought this one in an ANACS xf45 slab,it is now in my Dansco.
<< <i>My one and only CBH!
I think this is probably an O-106 also, anyone else? Any other 1825's out there?
Here is an 1825 that I always thought was an O-110 R2, but looking at my own pics- I can't rule out an O-109 R5
Here are the obv and rev pics and I will have to pull the coin to get better shots and see it in hand to tell for sure which it is and it is, unfortunately, not with me at this time( I really think it is an O-110)
Your 1825 looks like O-110. The "8" leans to the right, and the curl on the "2" is short and pointed. The "5" is located under the curl like on O-110. On the O-109, the curl is pointed, but it is also long and thin.
I think your coin has the correct reverse to be an R5, but the obverse is the wrong one. To be the O-109 R5 worth a few hundred dollars, the curl of "2" should point to the "I" in "LIBERTY". On your coin the curl of "2" points to star 10. Sorry, your former coin is O-110 R2.
Care to guess the grade on these?
Compare your first coin to mepot's coin. PCI must have downgraded this one to AU50 for the scratch on the neck. It certainly has more detail than the ANACS AU58 coin, and your picture seems to show good luster.
Compare your second coin to stman's coin. ANACS was perhaps a bit generous on that AU58 grade. What is all that green stuff in the shield, PVC?
I am not at all surprised we are seeing so many duplicate marriages posted throughout this Capped Bust Half Dollar series. It does point out how difficult it is to find even a tough R3.
Please help me on the OVERTON NUMBERS.
Looks like a very nice lustrous O-106a R3. The reverse crack makes for easy attribution.
My pictures are not accurate as far as color on my coin since my digital camera is on the fritz but I think you get a sense of the detail. I believe I was told that this is a O-112 but please feel free to correct me if that is not right?
Here is my 1825 O-113. Rated R1. This one scores a 9-out-of-10 on the "crust" scale. I love it, and it only cost me $75.
Some diagnostics for 1825 O-115 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. Hair extends into headband between “RT” at base. “5” is tipped left, with sharp points on curl and serif of “2”. Bar just right of base of “1”.
Reverse: Extra diverging lines at bottom of stripe 6. Stripe 4 has two tines near bottom on right side. “A” base above adjacent “M” base, and “R” base above adjacent “I” base. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
Some diagnostics for 1825 O-116 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Miss Liberty’s upper forecurl extends into the headband above its center.
Reverse: Small tine extends left from the scroll beginning upper corner. “50C” is low with a well-formed “5”. “I” is centered under the left side of “T”.
Link to all Capped Bust Half Dollar series threads
Some diagnostics for 1825 O-102 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. Stars 1, 8, and 13 are 1/2 mm respectively from drapery, cap, and curl. (Obverse shared with O-103 and O-104.)
Reverse: “R” and “I” are joined at base. Line 1 of stripe 4 extends too far down. Line 3 of stripe 6 extends too far upwards. Stripes 3, 4, and 5 each have an extra line, showing left at their bottoms. Just right of center, a diagonal line crosses top four crossbars. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
This is the second use of obverse die 6, which was first used on the O-108.
This is the second use, but not the final use, of reverse die I, which was first used on the O-110. After its use from service on the 1825 O-109, this reverse die will be put into storage and used two years later to strike the very rare 1827 O-137, R6.
A quick identifier for the O-109 is to look at the T to I relationship on the reverse. The I is entirely left of the stand of T. Find this on an 1825 and you have either the rare O-109 or the slightly uncommon O-110. (Be careful not to confuse this with the 1825 O-107. The left side of the T is in line with the right side of the I on the O-107. This position is very close to, but not the same as, the T to I relationship on the O-109 and O-110.)
Once you have determined that you have either the O-109 or the O-110, check the direction that upper curl of the 2 points to. On the O-109 it points to the I of LIBERTY. On the O-110 it points to star 10. There are beautiful, clear pictures of this in Dr. Glenn Peterson's book.
Still think you might have the O-107? On the O-107 there is a dot below the E in STATES above and close to the motto and the ME in AMERICA touch. On the O-109 there is no dot below the E in STATES and the bottom serifs of AMERI are all close, but they do not touch.
Mozin, after looking at your diagnostics on your 102-R1 I think this is what I have when I aquired this not so crusty busty from 1825 ..... finally in my gruby fingers. But I'd be happy to get some confirmation from yourself, edmerlr or others here that know a lot more about it than I
The left side of the T - I are in line.
I cannot tell (in the photo) if line 1 of stripe 4 extends below the border or not. ...but I can see that line 3 of stripe 6 does go to the second crossbar.
Peterson tells us about the separating gules 3, 4, and 5. Yours appears to have this. To quote Peterson: "The bottom of gules 3, 4, and 5 have extra lines to the left, appearing to show the gule as fanning out in the lower shield margin."
All of the other diagnostics match.
AWESOME double profile.
This is one of the 1825 die marriages that I have been trying to upgrade for a couple of years. My set piece is a lowly EF-45, given freedom from the confines of a NGC coffin. How about my coin and $20 for yours? No? Oh well, I am heading to a large coin show in 69 hours---maybe I will get lucky.
best of luck at the show, I think I'd better hold off on a trade today
I can't even begin to imagine how many variety and types the Bust half series has. It really is crazy(man that crazy icon is scary)
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You are contributing member number 109, right after our new star Bust Half poster edmerlr.
No doubt about your correct attribution on your Bustie, and the coin is gorgeous.
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I have a suggestion for those trying to compare their coins to others posted in our series, in hopes they can attribute from the pictures. Simply take your coin pictured at about the same size as one shown by other posters, and slide your coin picture around to locate all the key areas one at a time. Start by locating the scroll below the scroll, noting I under T position, and where the scroll starts and ends. Next places to compare one picture above the other, are the 50 C, and the adjacent letter positions in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You will be pleasantly surprised when you easily pick up lower serifs too high or two low or touching, things not mentioned in Overton.
On the obverse, match the dates, the left stars, and then the right stars. I only use the obverse to confirm that I found the right reverse, or to decide which is the correct marriage using the same reverse.
Since I scanned all my Busties at 600 dpi, I find myself simply bringing up my coin pictures when I want to verify someone's attribution. Couldn't be slicker.
Welcome to our Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Your Bustie is O-112 R3. I noticed immediately that the AME is solidly joined at the base.
<< <i>hello was woundering about coin i just got? >>
I did a quick check and I believe your Bust is a O105, R2. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong...
The obverse of this very scarce die marriage was struck using Obverse die 14. This is the only use of this die. The 1825 O-117 was struck in the early part of the calendar year 1826.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die P. This was the first use of this die. The die was used immediately after to strike the scarce 1826 O-104.
The coin I have pictured is a very dark orginal specimen. The coin has a hint of golden glow caused by decades in a brown coin envelope. The diagnostics may not be easily seen because of the coin's dark toning.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage:
(1) On the obverse the upright of the 5 has been recut, with the original showing to the left near the top.
(2) On the obverse there are a couple horizontal die lines under the bust. If you have this die marriage, you may have to tilt it in the light to see these lines.
(3) On the reverse the olive stem is doubled as it enters into claw 1 from the left.
(4) On the reverse there is a small die defect lump on the lower right side of stripe 1.
Photos of the 1825 O-117, R4:
Recut upper stand of 5:
Doubling of olive stem as it goes into claw 1:
I believe your coin is the 1825 O-105, R2.
I am going by the distance between star 8 and the cap.
On the O-105 die marriage, ITE is joined at the top and ED at the bottom. Your photo is too small to confirm this.
Regards,
Ed
This is a very scarce die marriage. The DM is rated by the BHNC as R4+. R4+ means that 81 to 120 specimens are estimated to exist.
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2. This was the second of three uses of this die. It was used previously to strike O-102. It was used after striking O-104 to strike O-103. I can find no differences noted in the O/P book and the Peterson book regarding any diagnostic differences in this die as it wore thru repeated use.
The reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die D. This was the second and last usage of this die. It was used immediately prior to strike the 1824 O-115 in the calendar year 1825. This reverse die was called Rev. die N in the 1824 Bustie series.
The quick, easy identifier for this die marriage is an oval dot located in the field between the scroll and the left wing. (This same dot is seen on the reverse of the 1824 O-115 previously struck with the same die.)
As a double-check, if you're not sure that you are seeing what you think you are seeing (great use of English [?]---smile, grin, smile), check out the AM in AMERICA and the NI in UNITED. On the 1825 O-104, the AM touch at the base AND the N is distinctly higher than the I. (Note: The AM touch or are joined in other 1825 DM's.)
Photos of the 1825 O-104, R4+:
Some diagnostics for 1825 O-108 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. Star 7 points between dentils, and to junction of curl and headband. Star 13 nearly touches curl. “82” is closest. ”2” has a thick base, and a long sharp pointed curl. (Obverse shared with O-109.)
Reverse: “ED” and “AM” are joined at base, and “M” is higher.
Scroll ends left of the upright of “M”. Right side of “I” is under left side of “T”.
Edgar
Another nice chocolate Bustie.
Edgar
That's another nice one.
How did you come up with the term "Guido"?
I'm sure it's not from the encyclopedia meaning...
Mike
I'm assuming most out there know the meaning of a "Guido" which, for those who don't is a CBH that , when only in planchet form, was cranked thru the edge lettering machine and failed to make a complete revolution between the bar dies before it popped out. Thus, the planchet is not upset along this area. When the half was later struck these small areas pushed the metal out along the area that was not upset from the edge lettering. The result is the dentilation not only does not strike up along this area - because the metal goes right past the dentils in the die(s) but it can also most often make the coin out of round. Many, many years ago some folks called this a "pinch".
Now, as far as the term itself goes, that was created by Capped Bust half dollar specialist, Keith Bellman who was the first to decipher this strange phenomena on Capped Bust halves almost 15 years ago. And, I "think", it might have been after several cold ones, but you didn't hear that from me! . . .
Edgar
Quality control must have been a bit "bleary eyed" at Ye Ol Mint that day!
Edgar
This die marriage was struck in the last half of calendar year 1825 using Obverse die 1 and Reverse die A. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) Star 13 is close to the curl.
(2) UNITEDSTATES is very close, appearing as one word.
(3) ME touch.
(4) The right edge of the scroll ends under the center of the M. This is the only one of the 1825's with this diagnostic. The O-102's right edge is close to the center, but not under the center of the M.
Photos of the 1825 O-101, R1: