Will the PeaceGate fiasco hurt NGC's reputation?

Trinketts · February 16, 2006 2:53AM

Just curous what other board members think.

Russ · February 16, 2006 2:59AM

This isn't the first time this has happened, and they're still doing just fine.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts · February 16, 2006 2:59AM

<< This isn't the first time this has happened, and they're still doing just fine.

Russ, NCNE >>

They have had a high dollar blunder like this?

dthigpen · February 16, 2006 3:00AM

<< 

<< This isn't the first time this has happened, and they're still doing just fine.

Russ, NCNE >>

They have had a high dollar blunder like this? >>

Do you know it's a high dollar blunder? Just because Anaconda posted an inflated price on it doesn't mean he paid one.

Russ · February 16, 2006 3:02AM

<< << This isn't the first time this has happened, and they're still doing just fine.

Russ, NCNE >>

They have had a high dollar blunder like this? >>

Of course, and so has PCGS.

Russ, NCNE

Trinketts · February 16, 2006 3:03AM

So if the coin doctoring gets to the point where it is consistantly fooling the TPG's where does the hobby go from there?

dthigpen · February 16, 2006 3:04AM

<< So if the coin doctoring gets to the point where it is consistantly fooling the TPG's where does the hobby go from there? >>

People quit trusting TPGs concerning Color.

kranky · February 16, 2006 3:06AM

I think it will always take quality doctoring to fool the TPGs. The amateurish efforts fool no one. The term "market acceptable toning" only exists as a euphemism for "not sure, but looks OK."

Russ · February 16, 2006 3:06AM

<< So if the coin doctoring gets to the point where it is consistantly fooling the TPG's where does the hobby go from there? >>

I don't think that's a concern. A few will slip by, as has always happened, but I doubt we'll get to a point where PCGS and NGC are consistently fooled.

Russ, NCNE

BigD5 · February 16, 2006 3:08AM

What do you mean "constantly"?

I would hardly describe the TPG's as being "constantly fooled".

I chalk this Peace dollar situation right up there next to the '93-s Morgan in the au+ PCGS holder that was BENT. Yes, BENT.

The coin went back to PCGS. They missed it. It doesn't mean they are incompetent.

Same with this Peace dollar. Just something that happened.

Let me know when it's an epidemic.

Gemineye · February 16, 2006 3:08AM

Not really. Only the Tip of the iceberg...................

Regulated · February 16, 2006 3:09AM

The fiasco du jour will open the eyes of a few people on these boards who did not already understand that the TPGs are run by humans, not infallible god-like creatures. A few extremists will refuse to buy toned coins in NGCs holders, but the world will continue to turn.

Julian · February 16, 2006 3:10AM

I voted yes, because as the question was stated even if one person thinks less of them, then it hurt.

That said. No one and no service is perfect. Therefore since we all make mistakes they should not suffer any more than if any of the other services made a mistake. They could suffer if they do not re-imburse the owner, however.

airplanenut · February 16, 2006 3:12AM

PCGS and NGC have had plenty of blunders, as has been said. I recall a few years ago when Legend had a gem saint that turned after being puttied... I think that was a $14k coin or so. A PCGS piece from a FUN auction, if sent back, should also result in a very hefty buy-back (far more than this peace dollar). Mistakes happen, but a few out of millions isn't so bad when you think about it.

tradedollarnut · February 16, 2006 3:16AM

In a week, we'll all forget.

Well, maybe two.

dragon · February 16, 2006 3:29AM

Although this coin was a blatant example, NGC has a long history of holdering AT'd Peace dollars from what I've seen in the past, so I don;t think this example hurts their reputation any more than any of the others they've holdered.

RedTiger · February 16, 2006 3:39AM

Of course yes, but only a little bit. Now, if this were in a new ANACS holder, given the point that company is at with a product launch, that would be big trouble for them.

Be careful out there. Some dealers could care less if they are selling AT coins, raw or certified, as long the flow of green continues into their bank account.

RKKay · February 16, 2006 3:41AM

The more incidents of errors and other misfeasance, the worse the reputation.

chabot510 · February 16, 2006 4:12AM

Julian said it best.

Fairlaneman · February 16, 2006 4:30AM

If you really no how easy it is to fool NGC with AT tone you will figure that this latest fiasco will not hurt them at all. What will hurt them is when collectors figure out that the said TPG is really not as good as they are hyped up to be.

Why did I make this statement ?

First off they put a coin in a slab that you might say I "Doctored". It was a 1931D Merc Dime that I did not like the grade ANACS put on it, MS62. After goofing around a little with 2x2 envelopes, acetone and a little heat I stumbled across a way that imparted the rustic look that a coin can pick up over the years. This look covered hairlines but also let the luster shine through. After putting this look on the dime I sent it in with a few other Mercs and low and behold NGC slapped a MS64 grade on it. This was done about five years ago so maybe it is not fair to say they grade like this now but the said TPG has not proven this to me yet.

Second out of all of the slabs I have purchased in the last eight or so years they have put more blatant AT coins in suspect slabs than anyother TPG. This includes later PCI slabs and ANACS. All of the coins that were suspect were cracked out and given a very quick dip. Poof the tone was gone which confirmed my suspicion. So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab.

In no way is NGC in the same league with some of the Scum Slabbers now present within the hobby. What they do need to do is tighten up some when it comes to toned coins if they expect to stay out of the Scum Slabbers territory.

Ken

coinguy1 · February 16, 2006 4:37AM

<< So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab >>

Perhaps so, but many others apparently believe that they have.

ANACONDA · February 16, 2006 4:39AM

NGC hasn't even had a chance to respond or react to the issue. Give them a chance.

ANACONDA · February 16, 2006 4:40AM

"Do you know it's a high dollar blunder? Just because Anaconda posted an inflated price on it doesn't mean he paid one. "

I paid big money for the coin.

dthigpen · February 16, 2006 4:40AM

<< So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab. >>

It's a fact that this coin is AT'd and it's in PCGS plastic:

Russ · February 16, 2006 4:46AM

<< << So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab >>

Perhaps so, but many others apparently believe that they have. >>

That toning look familiar?

Russ, NCNE

tradedollarnut · February 16, 2006 4:49AM

There are AT coins in the top TPG's holders. Part of what you get when you have a good relationship with a good dealer is screening them out of your collection.

bushmaster8 · February 16, 2006 5:03AM

<< So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab.
Ken >>

Wow! Ken you must not get out much!

CalGold · February 16, 2006 5:10AM

Here is the standard used by PCGS in determining whether to grade or bag a coin based on questionable toning. Standard is per David Hall's reply in the Q&A formum last month.

<< The guiding concept on artifical toning (and many other no-grades) is "clear and convincing evidence." If a grader is fairly certain the coin is AT he will not grade it. If he's just "sort of suspicious he'll put a grade on it. >>

CG

Fairlaneman · February 16, 2006 5:16AM

<< 

<< So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab.
Ken >>

Wow! Ken you must not get out much! >>

Let me correct the statement.

"So far I have not found a coin in a PCGS slab that was AT that I have purchased".

Since I live in the sticks most of the purchases I make are Sight Unseen so yes a really broad scope of the market is not seen and I do not buy modern coins except for a few Roosies and coins needed for my type set which ends at 1964.

Still the score is NGC 4, ANACS 1, PCI 1 and PCGS a big goose egg.

And just for the record on the Peace Dollar. First thought was its Ugly and the second thought was AT. I saw the thread very early but did not respond because of what happened with another dollar that was shown by the same buyer/seller a year or so ago.

Ken

SUPERCARCOINS · February 16, 2006 11:34AM

suspicious tone yes.............but this pig is so fake

The NGC graders KNEW it was fake ; but they slabbed iy anyway

THATS what so disturbing

ANACONDA · February 16, 2006 11:53AM

"Part of what you get when you have a good relationship with a good dealer is screening them out of your collection. "

Yes, it might be true but your dealer should also steer you away from putting together a huge collection of top pop three cent nickels.

stman · February 16, 2006 12:01PM

<< There are AT coins in the top TPG's holders. Part of what you get when you have a good relationship with a good dealer is screening them out of your collection. >>

Sounds all warm and fuzzy. Yet they then make statements such as this.

<< Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it! >>

BillJones · February 16, 2006 12:09PM

PCGS has made mistakes too.

The difference was this one went high profile on this board.

Bear · February 16, 2006 12:15PM

I had a collection of POP TARTS once.

tradedollarnut · February 16, 2006 12:21PM

Yes, it might be true but your dealer should also steer you away from putting together a huge collection of top pop three cent nickels.

smoebody made a lot of money on those recently.

CarlWohlforth · February 16, 2006 12:32PM

Hurt NGC's reputation? Is that relative to PCGS's reputation?

It has to be. They are competing for the top spot in TPGs. My buddy just had a set of naturally toned ASEs rejected by PCGS. So I voted NO, it won't hurt relative to PCGS because both companies make mistakes....

LickThoseStamps · February 16, 2006 1:40PM

Is it just me, or are there other collectors who feel that toned coins are those that have been improperly handled/stored over the years?

I've never understood the mentality of paying premiums for such things.

D · February 16, 2006 1:47PM

<< In a week, we'll all forget.

Well, maybe two.

>>

I hope this doesn't have the makings like the months of Wannabe posts.

Edit: Thiggy, you spill some liver of sulfur on the back of that? Or was it just a drip?

-Daniel

relayer · February 16, 2006 3:31PM

<< Thiggy, you spill some liver of sulfur on the back of that? Or was it just a drip? >>

Good eye

<< 

<< So far I have not found what I thought was a AT coin in a PCGS slab. >>

It's a fact that this coin is AT'd and it's in PCGS plastic:

>>

But this one is a lot prettier

KevinMcMillen · February 16, 2006 9:15PM

<< Is it just me, or are there other collectors who feel that toned coins are those that have been improperly handled/stored over the years?

I've never understood the mentality of paying premiums for such things. >>

I think most like coins the way the mint made them untoned, all toned coins are less interesting to most but when wild colors are on a coin its like wow to those that like them & even those that don't like toned coins like the wild colored coins. Ugly toned coins are still ugly, just like water spotted coins, but who knows, could be water spot collectors will be the new craze.

1shot1K · February 16, 2006 10:20PM

AS the man said - Any publicity is GOOD publicity.
It all comes down to one thing - anyone in coins should educate themselves before making any decision.
This might be done by LOOKING at many coins (what a novel concept) or by seeking informed peer opinions.
Whether the coin that has brought all this attention to the forefront again was AT or NT, what any one
person likes about a coin may never agree with anyone else. If the coin was listed for sale at $14.50 or
$14,500 if the buyer can afford the price and is happy with the coin that is all that matters.
It also needs to be said that ALL TONING is artificial. THe coin was not struck with this surface color.
Whether time or expertise improves the appearance and value, if in the buyers opinion it is acceptable,
that should be the end of the matter. I believe that there are more than enough AMBULANCE CHASERS
elsewhere in the world, that we shouldn't have to put up with them in numismatics.

leothelyon · February 16, 2006 10:33PM

Voted No because their pop numbers show they have been doing this stuff for years! They created a market through advertisement and a few major coins that get the most pubicity. As long as the larger sector of custumers are happy with their product, they'll keep on churning out those MS66 and MS67 slabs forever.
Accuracy doesn't matter as long as sales are up. It's like some restraunts and businesses when they start out, they first establish a custumer base with the best products they have, once that gets flowing, they sit back and make cuts to maximize their profits. The custumer base is huge and it takes awhile to to change an image once it has been established.

Leo

pontiacinf · February 16, 2006 11:56PM

is this the coin in question?

Will the PeaceGate fiasco hurt NGC's reputation?

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