FINALLY -- a scientific test to determine AT vs. NT!

TonedPeaceNut · April 8, 2005 5:01PM

Today I spoke with a nationally recognized chemist who assured me that he has the ability to analyze the toning present on certain coins and be able to determine with specificity the origins of the toning. While it is not a litmus test, it will provide quanifiable results that can be used to determine not only the nature of the toning, ie., AT or NT, but might even be able to provide answers as to how the toning occurred and from what source, ie., mint bag, album, envelope, mint set.

While this whole idea is still in the developmental stage and I unfortunately can not reveal much more than what I already have, it is certainly possible now.

I'm going to be submitting 10 coins to him for analysis, 5 that have been bodybagged by PCGS for artifical color and 5 that have been certified as authentic, natural toning. None of the coins will be altered or harmed in anyway, nor will their toning be affected by the testing.

Here's where I need some help. What 10 should I submit? Should they be of the same denomination? Should they be different types of toning? Should the AT coins be of a certain type of AT or look?

The first 10 are going to be quite important, what should I do?

Thanks for the help,

TPN

magikbilly · April 8, 2005 5:18PM

Assuming this is possible, I would think that submitting different types of metals and toning would give results that would not be of as much value were you to submit all silver with perhaps 3 different toning types. There are enough variables as it is. IMHO.

Billy

Pdlpsher · April 8, 2005 5:24PM

Pdlpsher · April 8, 2005 5:28PM

I would submit 5 coins that are known to be artificially toned (i.e. not just rely on PCGS BB) and another 5 that are known to be NT. To do this scientifically you need to be absolutely sure the sample is either AT or NT.

coinguy1 · April 8, 2005 6:12PM

<< I'm going to be submitting 10 coins to him for analysis, 5 that have been bodybagged by PCGS for artifical color and 5 that have been certified as authentic, natural toning >>

TPN, what if some of the body-bagged pieces you submit are NT and/or some of the certified ones are AT?

morgannut2 · April 8, 2005 7:43PM

This is a great idea. I've long believed that there is no substitute for experience to tell artifically added sulfur compounds to copper/silver coins. However-- there are any number of coins I see that seem to not be toned by long term exposure to hydrogen suldide gasses, but transferance of various coin album compounds (including paint oxides) that appear to be NT, but are strictly speaking, altered surface contaminents--and in cases done through adding heat. It would be usefull to know the actual composition of some of these compounds--be it organically based paints or other things. I would also pay special attention to some blue colors that seem unnaturally thick compared to the blues demonstratively known on coins from mint canvas bags. It may also be useful to see the composition of "SMOKED" gold (AT-often in holders), which has to my eye a slightly limey puke-greenish tint on the high spots.

As far as testing certified coins--I don't think it really matters one way or the other, if you are to be unbiased.

TUMUSS · April 8, 2005 9:51PM

I would be very curious to hear the details, criteria, and diagnostics this "test" entails. I have always believed that coin grading could be scientifically quantified...why not toning.

DNADave · April 8, 2005 10:33PM

Whoa, is a sample collected from the coin? If so, how? I could see how a SEM with X-ray dispersion would yield objective results without harming the coin, but if your talking about chemical analysis then a sample is needed.

lathmach · April 8, 2005 11:04PM

So if I forget and leave a coin in an envelope, and it tones, he can tell it's naturally toned, whereas if I intentionally put a coin in an envelope to tone......he has the ability to determine that it's artifically toned?
Man he's got to be right up there with the Saints.

Ray

BAJJERFAN · April 8, 2005 11:44PM

Toning is an artifact of storage conditions and storage medium so the REAL AT/NT debate ought to be about "INTENT". Maybe we need to add a new acronym IAT for intended artificial toning.

CharlesDarwin · April 8, 2005 11:46PM

I already know how to determine this....

If a coin is AT, you can rub the toning with your finger and it comes off. If it's Real Toing, it stays.

kieferscoins · April 8, 2005 11:54PM

<< I already know how to determine this....

If a coin is AT, you can rub the toning with your finger and it comes off. If it's Real Toing, it stays. >>

And no matter what you have fingerprints all over each coin!

Cameron Kiefer

BAJJERFAN · April 9, 2005 12:13AM

Does BT aka "blowtorch toning" rub off with yer fingers?

Coinhusker1 · April 9, 2005 12:25AM

For each set of 5 coins:

Bag toned silver dollar
Target (album) toned silver dollar
Mint Set toned Franklin Half
Toned Nickel coin (Buff or Jefferson)
Toned RB cent (Indian or Linc)

For the "AT" set you would have coins which attempt to simulate each of the five types above. For the cent, alternatively, you could do an artificially colored one (i.e. a BU coin dipped pink and then colored to look red) and have a full red coin on the "NT" side.

rocketmangb · April 9, 2005 12:31AM

Seems a might far fetched to me

TonedPeaceNut · April 9, 2005 1:44AM

<< what if some of the body-bagged pieces you submit are NT and/or some of the certified ones are AT? >>

Well I guess then we'll know how good PCGS is at detecting AT from NT with using just the human eye.

<< Seems a might far fetched to me >>

I'm guessing you're a big fan of Capricorn 1 then.

<< To do this scientifically you need to be absolutely sure the sample is either AT or NT. >>

No, See the above answer to Coinguy's question. There are no absolutes, just answers. But after the analysis we'll know more than we did than by just looking at the coin.

<< So if I forget and leave a coin in an envelope, and it tones, he can tell it's naturally toned, whereas if I intentionally put a coin in an envelope to tone >>

This isn't a test to determine intent specifically, but it can provide results as to how the coin was toned. In your example, we would consider that a NT coin. However, if you soaked your envelope in sulfur and put you coin in there and it toned over night, we probably would be able to tell what you did to the envelope to produce the toning pattern.

I'm not trying to spark a debate over what is AT and what is NT. An entire community will never agree to a definition, and there will always be some room for dispute. For example, there might be some that believe all toning, even from mint bags and albums is AT. So be it. But finally we will have a test to analyze and quanify what the toning really is.

Coinhusker -- thank you for trying to answer my original question. And I think you are half right

But the more I think about it, I think all 10 coins should be Morgans. 5 AT and 5 NT. And I think they should have similar toning patterns.

The AT coins should be examples that try to simulate the toning on a NT coin.

So far this is what I got --

Mint Bag -- crescent toning on 1 side of the Morgan
Album -- rainbow rim toning equally toned on the obverse and reverse
Envelope -- either poly or monochromatic toning on both the obverse and reverse

What other types of toning is there? Rather than describing the toning, describe the medium that the coin acquired the toning from.

What else is there?

TPN

cointagious · April 9, 2005 2:02AM

<< Well I guess then we'll know how good PCGS is at detecting AT from NT with using just the human eye. >>

You really don't want to be a member here, do you?

My guess would be some type of light spectrum analysis but what is the definition of AT?

<< So if I forget and leave a coin in an envelope, and it tones, he can tell it's naturally toned, whereas if I intentionally put a coin in an envelope to tone......he has the ability to determine that it's artifically toned?
Man he's got to be right up there with the Saints. >>

That about says it all.

TonedPeaceNut · April 9, 2005 2:12AM

How I forgot to add this same test can be used to determine if any alteration of the coin has taken place.

For example -- artifical frost, putty, thumbing, whizzing, moving around metal, ect.

<< You really don't want to be a member here, do you? >>

Dont worry we wont forget NGC and ANACS. I'm just starting with PCGS. This isn't a PCGS test per se, all the top 3 TPGs coins will eventually be tested.

TPN

sinin1 · April 9, 2005 2:45AM

what coins should you submit?

make them all Morgans - size and consistency

is this truly a scientific test?

what are you trying to detect? the time taken for toning to occur?

you need positive and negative controls that you are sure about? but how can you be sure unless you have owned these coins for the last 100 years and made the colored ones yourself-

what is the 'gold' standard that you are comparing this new procedure to? you need to know to evaluate the effectiveness of the procedure -

if the person performing the test says their procedure is the 'gold standard', then you are probably dealing with a snakeoil scam salesperson

I wish you luck, but my thoughts are all toning is various stages of surface contamination / corrosion with help from the environment-

similar to brilliant CAM DCAM in proof coins - not a obvious difference but a gradiation with an overlapping scale

bushmaster8 · April 9, 2005 3:02AM

<< To do this scientifically you need to be absolutely sure the sample is either AT or NT. >>

<< 
you need positive and negative controls that you are sure about? but how can you be sure unless you have owned these coins for the last 100 years and made the colored ones yourself-
q]

These comments are barking up the right tree. Properly controlling the test will be paramount. It will be necessary to use coins that are absolutely, positively known to be AT or NT. ie: coins you doctored yourself, coins you personally removed from a Treasury mint set, etc.

I wish you and your chemist friend sucess, but I fear in the end you may have to change your forum handle to "Xpipedreamer2".

TWQG · April 9, 2005 4:00AM

This chemist thinks your chemist friend is full of it.

BAJJERFAN · April 9, 2005 4:30AM

I would imagine that it mite be some type of nondestructive evaluation using some sort of reflectance spectroscopy.

DNADave · April 9, 2005 4:38AM

<< This chemist thinks your chemist friend is full of it. >>

relayer · April 9, 2005 5:40AM

You are confused as to what is science and what is an "expert" opinion.

But hey, if you found a guy who will take your money and give you an opinion, then great.

MAD4MORGANS · April 9, 2005 6:36AM

<< This chemist thinks your chemist friend is full of it. >>

<< But hey, if you found a guy who will take your money and give you an opinion, then great. >>

What makes you think your nationally renowed chemist friend will return your coins!! The "chemistry" for this just doesn't sound right to me. If you did participate in this experiment, I wouldn't send anything of any real value.

BAJJERFAN · April 9, 2005 7:05AM

In southern Cal there are plenty of well known chemists in the University system. Getting screwed out of my coins would be the last thing I would be concerned about.

TonedPeaceNut · April 9, 2005 12:26PM

TTT for anyone else that might have something positive to say.

TPN

Coinhusker1 · April 9, 2005 12:28PM

Well, I will be very interested in the results.

Have you decided which coins to test yet?

TonedPeaceNut · April 9, 2005 12:59PM

I'm going to analyze all Morgans -- probably the easiest to find with the differnet types of toning and probably the less expensive. And they are the most ATed coins as well.

TPN

TonedPeaceNut · April 10, 2005 1:51AM

Okay one last TTT for anyone who wants to "bag" on this idea!

TPN

rocketmangb · April 10, 2005 2:08AM

sounds like a crock o hooey to me

seems like it would involve destructive testing like gas chromatography

gamr0n · April 10, 2005 2:15AM

I am kind of skeptical about this. I mean if its the same reaction that occurs to create the colors, like how sulfur compounds make silver tone... then how can he tell if some one does it artificially or naturally? Because in chemistry its a state function sorta thing... The path the reaction takes doesn't matter as long as it ends up the same in the end. I just don't see this being the perfect solution becuase it may be damaging to coins, and it just doesn't seem like it will work.

Hehehe and to brag I am going to State for Chemistry in the WYSE team, and I am going to nationals for the Chemistry Olympiad

Cam40 · April 10, 2005 2:18AM

hmmm, funny thread. and what of those coins that are `market acceptable toned` ie: AT but,very attractive (in top tpg holders)

TonedPeaceNut · April 10, 2005 2:20AM

<< hmmm, funny thread. and what of those coins that are `market acceptable toned` ie: AT but,very attractive (in top tpg holders) >>

We are working on a way to test the coins through the slabs as well.

TPN

fishcooker · April 10, 2005 2:26AM

I'd send him 10 NT morgans. You'll find out right fast-like how much confidence he has in his AT detector.

gamr0n · April 10, 2005 2:29AM

What exactly are you using to distinguish between AT and NT coins? If you don't want to reveal the process you are planning on using, just explain what the detectable difference between the two is.

sinin1 · April 10, 2005 2:58AM

I think it is very ambitious of you and your team -> good luck and I wish you success

On the flip side, you will probably need a few hundred to be statistically significant

Once the procedure is perfected, will you start a company selling this service? If so, what would be cost and time?

TonedPeaceNut · April 10, 2005 3:10AM

Thanks sinin1 -- I do appreciate your support.

And your are correct, it will require a rather large database of analysis for comparison purposes. I am assuming you already have an reasonable idea of what the testing is. Currently, its a rather expensive test, upwards of $200 a coin. However, as with anything volume can bring that price down. I'm not sure how much, but it might be inline with what a walkthrough slabbing fee might be.

Turnaround is going to be about 30 days now and should be less than that eventually. This person is use to doing analysis within 2-3 days, but for a much higher cost -- usually where's there's litigation involved.

As for starting a company -- not sure if a company is the correct way to do this. I've thought about a toned coin only grading service, using this technology as the determiner of AT vs. NT, but it would only be useful for highend coins. So volume will be low.

I'm think more of a service for those that want to have assurances that the coin they are buying is in fact NT and hasn't been doctored. If we can perfect the whole analysis thru the slab procedure, then we might be able to tell you which coins/hoards are NT and which are AT.

We might also provide analysis for other doctoring such as artifical frost, putty, thumbing, and lasering metal.

The idea is to bring science to bear on this industry. Think of it as CSI for coins.

Hey, thats a great name for the service CSA --- Coin Surface Analysis!

TPN

coinguy1 · April 10, 2005 3:18AM

<< This chemist thinks your chemist friend is full of it. >>

Sean, you might (or might not) be correct. But, out of fairnes to TPN, you should at least have and state a factual basis for such a condemnation.

This is, to say the least, an extremely ambitious endeavor on the part of TPN, but he's not asking us for donations or anything other than suggestions. Why not be supportive and see what comes of this?

bushmaster8 · April 10, 2005 3:44AM

<< We are working on a way to test the coins through the slabs as well.

TPN >>

Uh- oh!...this just went from

possible but highly unlikely, to:

almost definitely a pipedream!

"through the slabs as well."

sheesh!

(sorry to be negative, but that's how I sees it)

TonedPeaceNut · April 10, 2005 4:35AM

Thanks Mark!!!!

Bushmaster -- you are correct, testing through the slab might be a tad difficult, but I assure you some of the other posters are right on the mark with their understanding of the technology involved. It is a real possibility. I've been working on this idea for close to a year now.

For those that might understand -- here's an example of what the raw data will look like -

TPN

gamr0n · April 10, 2005 4:43AM

what does the electron configuration/orbital stuff have to do with it?

TWQG · April 10, 2005 5:01AM

Applying scientific principle and technique to a highly subjective ‘subject’ is as old as scientific inquiry; and still false. Professional coin graders often can’t agree on what is AT vs. NT and many would propose that there is no fundamental difference other than intent.

There is this pesky little issue of positive and negative controls. TPN does not own enough coins to create a statistically significant control group, and that the control group would be defined by TPN would doom the results to ‘garbage in, garbage out’ kind of experimentation. This is not a comment on TPN’s abilities but merely recognition of the most common mistake in scientific inquiry. That is to say, if the control group being used to calibrate this method cannot even be adequately defined as AT/NT than what is the validity of the data generated using the control group?

If this is true- “it will require a rather large database of analysis for comparison purposes.” Than we aren’t talking about a “FINALLY -- a scientific test to determine AT vs. NT!” But more like two guy’s comparative database.

"We are working on a way to test the coins through the slabs as well." This statement suggests maybe a light scattering device or IR beam both of which will require knowing precisely the density, thickness, and composition of the holder and the volume of air trapped above the coin in the slab for ‘each individual sample being analyzed.’ Since the TPG’s all have different plastic compositions that most likely have changed over the years, this subset of data would be nearly impossible to compile. The volume of ‘air’ trapped above the coin will be an individual variable and would most certainly make the above techniques worthless.

"Some of the other posters are right on the mark with their understanding of the technology involved." Maybe I missed the post where the technology involved was discussed.

Oh wait, while composing this thread I see a scientific looking chart given with no interpretation of results. This must be science.

DNADave · April 10, 2005 5:13AM

I have no doubt that the elements on the surface of a coin can be determined using SEM or some other method. The relative amounts may also indicate whether they were applied or occur "naturally". I suppose that mostly silver oxide would be present in a NT coin with other environmental contaminates present in small amounts. Blowtorch toned coins would have carbon atoms present which, I believe, do not show up on a SEM scan. Sulfer compound treated coins may be difficult to separate from coins that were naturally in a high sulfer canvass bag or manila envelope. In any case, once you make the jump from what compounds are on a coin to how they got there, I think its shakey ground. BTW. What kind of analysis are we talking about? SEM, IR, or what?

"I've been working on this idea for close to a year now. "

Are you doing this or is someone else?

LeeG · April 10, 2005 5:23AM

Nothing is ever accomplished in life unless you try! A++ for effort and I hope your results are noteworthy!! Good Luck, Lee

TWQG · April 10, 2005 6:09AM

<< But, out of fairnes to TPN, you should at least have and state a factual basis for such a condemnation. >>

-Why does the burden of proof fall to a contributor in A PUBLIC FORUM stating his OPINION instead of the thread originator with the proclamation

<< FINALLY -- a scientific test to determine AT vs. NT! >>

Mark, wouldn't it be more logical to ask TPN to back up his assertion?

stev32k · April 10, 2005 7:02AM

I think virtually every new scientific idea that comes along has it's detractors. They are the one's that say "it won't work because..., and anyone that thinks it will work just does not understand the problems and the science involved". Sometimes they are right - sometimes they are wrong. But if people with original ideas listened to them the big breakthroughs would never happen.

coinguy1 · April 10, 2005 7:05AM

<< Mark, wouldn't it be more logical to ask TPN to back up his assertion? >>

Sean, believe me, I will be no easier on him than I was on you - you can ask him about that if you have any doubts.

That said, I'm prepared to listen and be convinced by facts/results if/when they are ready for presentation.

BAJJERFAN · April 10, 2005 8:45AM

I would guess that a toned coin pulled from an original bag or one from a GSA slab would be good enough to qualify as a known NT coin. I'm sure that TPN will be more than happy to provide additional info when he has it available. To condemn it with no knowledge of what it even is makes no sense to me.

AgMe · April 11, 2005 1:29AM

Hello all,

I have been wondering about "AT" for a while now, when does storing a coin improperly become AT? The Bison nickels I'm toning right now aren't dipped in anything, just placed in a "bad atmosphere", accelerated aging really, so there nothing to "rub off".

Granted, I'm still trying to figure out which chop marks I'm going to put on the rim, so plp will know it's "one of mine" (I'm thinking a star at 6 o'clock).

(On a side note, I scanned the coins, but it didn't do justice to the colors).

-g

BAJJERFAN · April 11, 2005 4:02AM

<< This chemist thinks your chemist friend is full of it. >>

Wouldn't smoeone who makes such a statement be expected to be able to back up that statement?

FINALLY -- a scientific test to determine AT vs. NT!

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