And, eBays biggest PCI junk con artist continues to thrive.
Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
Watch, as he magically turns a $20 coin in to $680.
And, I'm being generous at $20. Gawd, I wish something could be done about these hypesters ripping off the unsuspecting. That claim of a $150,000 value has got to be some sort of fraud.
Russ, NCNE
And, I'm being generous at $20. Gawd, I wish something could be done about these hypesters ripping off the unsuspecting. That claim of a $150,000 value has got to be some sort of fraud.
Russ, NCNE
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
Just Having Fun
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Ok kiddies, always use protection when getting frigged by a sleazeBay coin dealer.
<< <i>Russ the only way to combat these sellers and slabbers is for people to start web pages on PCI. NTC, Capital, SSDG and the rest like K6AZ did on ACG. >>
Yeah, that worked out real well for Eric. While he is fighting the good fight, there are plenty of other ways to go after a company that overgrades and uses illegal marketing and business practices other then risking a potential lawsuit that you'd have to shell out large somes of money to defend.
Here's one in California --- Unfair Business Practices (Cal. Section 17200)
And one from Texas -- Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Consumer Protection Act
There are other ways.
Michael
<< <i>And that Kennedy is considered PR70DCAM? >>
Only by PCI and those who sell their junk.
Russ, NCNE
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I'm with Frattlaw, why shell out large sums of money for defense when there are other ways to go after them?
No. That's hairlines from mishandling. Looks like it was lightly wiped with a cloth. OK, actually it has been lightly cleaned but since most Morg Proofs have been mishandled the grading services are more tolerable toward it than if it were a MS example. That amount of hairlining is consistant with the 62 grade.
What I'm not sure of is how do you go about filing a complaint based on a state act.
If enough folks complain to the right place a lawyer may not be needed. (sorry FrattLaw)
Frattlaw, do you go after them? You have the skill and the occupation, do you spend any time on it?
MichaelDixon, if I recall, you sent Eric a gloating PM after the lawsuit happened...I have heard you are an upstanding dealer and pay good prices.
What do you do to help make the hobby safer from the ACGs of the world? Do you educate?
I know there are a lot of very knowledgable people on this board....I see a lot of people making comments but doing nothing other than saying "it was a "tuition" to the coin collecting hobby by buying crap". I see a lot of "only a moron would pay that much or buy that coin...can't they tell the slab is wrong and that company sells crap?"
Seriously, when I started the hobby as a kid, it was the 70's.....no tpg services. Now, I rejoined last year and there are. I think slabbing is a good concept. But, I would have learned, possibly, some expensive lessons if I hadn't hit RCC and seen Eric's, and others', comments and posting. I thank him and all the others.
Now, I personally don't think he did anything illegal. The law can be miscontrued and misused in a lot of ways....lawyers are great at pushing for things that shouldn't happen, for payment. That is their job. I would love to see a legal fight on the good side. Until then, people in the hobby need what Eric and the others did......lord knows that no one else is trying to right this wrong. And, no one innocent was hurt doing it.
So, rather than pointing it out and lamblasting Eric and the others...please, tell us what YOU are doing to better the hobby. Not everyone in the hobby reads this board so they may not be "as knowledgable" as you all are.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
No. That's hairlines from mishandling. Looks like it was lightly wiped with a cloth. OK, actually it has been lightly cleaned but since most Morg Proofs have been mishandled the grading services are more tolerable toward it than if it were a MS example. That amount of hairlining is consistant with the 62 grade.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i saw this coin in person about 5 weeks ago sight seen and it is worse in person
also with the demand for 1895 dollars they are more tolerant with this coin a common date might even be bodybagged looking like this coin
and evenmoreso with the standards being the most lax it has ever been since the services started to operate in the late 1980's this started at the fun 2003 show and still continues and seems to be getting worse
in fact 5 or 6 years this 1895 dollar coin would have most probably never gotten into a holder and if it did would have been graded proof 60 or proof 58
michael
michael
Glen
<< <i>Frattlaw, do you go after them? You have the skill and the occupation, do you spend any time on it? >>
Well lawyers can't file their own lawsuits, we need clients -- someone smart enough to step forward and take on the battle. We only represent people. I could manufacture a plaintiff, but that could get me disbarred. While ACG, and the others are a blight on the hobby, I'm not about to lose my license to fight this battle.
However if you know someone in SoCal willing to take up the cause, let me know.
Edited to add: Then again, you have to be careful. Others might be able to use that same law to undermine PCGS as well as NGC and ANACS. Once there's blood in the water .......... well you get the idea.
Michael
<< <i>
<< <i>Frattlaw, do you go after them? You have the skill and the occupation, do you spend any time on it? >>
Well lawyers can't file their own lawsuits, we need clients -- someone smart enough to step forward and take on the battle. We only represent people. I could manufacture a plaintiff, but that could get me disbarred. While ACG, and the others are a blight on the hobby, I'm not about to lose my license to fight this battle.
However if you know someone in SoCal willing to take up the cause, let me know.
Edited to add: Then again, you have to be careful. Others might be able to use that same law to undermine PCGS as well as NGC and ANACS. Once there's blood in the water .......... well you get the idea.
Michael >>
If were in CA, I would be severely tempted to take you up on that offer.
If am in WA though (Russ keeps getting all the good, choice, coins at the local shows before I can even get to the show) and that wouldn't work, now would it?
So, maybe someone else wants to, but, right here I can't. I don't know enough nor do I know any lawyers that would go for it, and, $300 an hour is probably the low end...maybe contingency based?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Usually these types of suits are settled after a defendant loses a Motion for Summary Judgement. If discovery is necessary these suits can get quite expensive for the defendant. And if they try to bury the plaintiff in paper, well it gets enough more expensive -- at $450 an hour a lawyer can take a long time to sift through reems of paper.
And then there's the disgorgement of ill gotten gains by the company and of course the actual settlement to the class.
In brief, these types of suits can close the doors of some business and cripple others.
I have seen settlements in the millions at the old firm I worked for.
What does it take to trip the statute -- not much. We filed one because several stores were charging tax on bags of ice cubes, which was deemed to be in conflict with the tax code of California.
So really, keep fighting the good fight, start your web pages, get on your soap box and take the big bright spotlight and aim it right on the bullseye on your chest -- cause the reality of the situation is that probably sooner or later you're going to get sued by a TPG. Being a defendant in a lawsuit is not what I would call fun -- and you have to pay for your own attorney.
As for going after Ebay -- they have a stable of lawyers that don't usually lose.
Here's some winners for Ebay
Copyright Infringement
Libel over Neg. Feedback
A 17200 Action
Michael
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
That's a good lawsuit, Fratt. I'll bet the stores simply pocketed the purported "tax." I'm not overstating the case when I say fraudulent fees are an enormous profit center for businesses, and not just shady enterprises: nationally recognized names with reputations to protect have been involved in some shocking practices. I'll name just three businesses: credit card companies, cell phone providers, banks.
Concerning the Ebay fraudsters that hawk fools gold: expose the scum and educate collectors.
First, I sold that coin and I sold a Proof-64 Morgan Dollar of that date (1895) a few months earlier. The Proof-62 Morgan is absolutely solid for the grade. The Proof-64 I sold had nearly the same amount of hairlines but no disturbances on the cheek and garnered a 2 point higher grade. I'm quite familiar with Proof Morgans and even in Proof 65 there will still be hairlines, albeit less than the 62 and the 64. Body bagged? You MUST be kidding!
As far as the grading services, particularly PCGS, your claim that they have been loosening up considerably starting with the 2003 FUN show. I must say that you need to get out of the house more.
PCGS is, at the present time, just about as tough as they've ever been with the exception of the early 1986-1988 days when a grade over MS-65 or over Proof-65 was something of a minor miracle!
Where did the Morgan come from? It looks like one I owned a few years ago.
Ira
blazing red coin,not a hint of cameo however !
im out 40 bucks and no more PCI for me !
Proof
--Severian the Lame
K S
K S
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I responded to a PM from Eric, I didn't initiate the PM. As for gloating, I don't think it was gloating. I tell everybody the same thing: "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."
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What do you do to help make the hobby safer from the ACGs of the world? Do you educate?
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I belong to several coin clubs and am available to give talks about the pitfalls of different grading services to any club that asks. If you come to my shows, I have different people give educational talks and invite any of YOU to come to one and give a talk on any coin subject you desire. This past weekend I did a small show. Several people were surprised or p!$$ed off when I tried to educate them on the differences in grading companies and on my thoughts of using the RedBook as a purchasing guide. Some of my shows I place a case with all the services holders and literature from the big services with it. When I do this, myself, my son or somebody else is readily available to answer any questions. I buy coins in any service's holders. This gets the holders off the market and saves the hobby from losing somebody who bought third tier holders nobody else wants. Most of the third tier coins are broken out and either sold raw or slabbed by one of the big three. Occasionally, one of the third tier services gets the grade right and I'll sell the coin, as is. You'll see all services holders represented in one of my showcases at shows. People flock to the PR70DCAM state quarters in third tier holders and it is a great way to educate the public on the pitfalls of buying a number and not the coin.
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One again, I have recommended this to everybody. Go out and educate the public by joining a Coin Club or going to Coin Shows and putting on Educational Seminars. Websites and written words might not be slanderous, but it sets you up to waste money, time and drain your energy from frivilious lawsuits. You might not agree with Frattlaw or myself, but I spent more than $10k over a letter I wrote one time. A friend of mine, who is an attorney, educated me on the tactful way to let people know which slabs aren't well respected. I invite you or anybody else to give an educational talk at one of my upcoming shows or auctions. The next auction is May 29th and the next show is June 4th and 5th.
It's very paternalistic to think that you need to interfere with a sale just because you think someone is paying more than what you believe the coin is worth. Furthermore, it's very elitist of those who think they have more knowledge and they should therefore come to the defense of another who might be making an unwise purchase.
If a guy walked up to you on the street and offered you a million dollars in exchange for a nickel from your pocket, would you say "no, that's too much money" ? Of course not! You would sell him as many nickels as you could. Who cares what his reason is for paying a million dollars for your nickel. Obviously, the guy values it for a million dollars, and that's what he is willing to pay.
Stop assuming that just because you are armed with "superior knowledge" of coins that it entitles you to criticize someone's sale or purchase. You don't know the buyer's motive for making a purchase.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
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While it is true that we don't know the buyer's motive, I do know that I am contacted by many buyers who have bought third tier slabs as an investment. Most, if not all, of these people who bought the third tier slabs with greed as their motive have lost money. THIS is why I try to educate the public, not because I have "superior knowledge."
It's another thing altogether to criticize a sale or purchase that you are not a party to.
What do you suggest and what are you doing to help cut down scams/ripoffs in the coin industry?
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It's another thing altogether to criticize a sale or purchase that you are not a party to.
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Please enlighten me as to where I criticized this sale or purchase?
"What do you suggest and what are you doing to help cut down scams/ripoffs in the coin industry?"
I do not have the paternalistic attitude toward the hobby that you obviously do.
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And...if we extend an elevator shaft, we don't need rockets to reach the International Space Station!
Not exactly sure what you mean by this, but it sounds like a lame attempt to sound witty.
a coin by 2-3 points from the Industry norm. After all, its only the suckers money being spent.
Scuzzy sellers have to make a living and it will teach those dumb collectors a lesson in economics
when they try to sell their treasures. There is a well known classic rule that states that "You can never cheat
an honest person". If a deal looks too good to be possible, its usually not. If something seems too cheap
for the stated grade, then one should be wary.If coin purchases come with a guarantee to make a profit
or a buy back at whatever you paid, it will never be honored. This is a great hobby with a bunch of great dealers
and collectors in it. However, where there is money, there will always be scam artists and sleazy people
looking to rip off the unwary, niave and the foolish.
Y
Camelot
<< <i>Who are you to say that a buyer is over paying for a coin, or that a seller is trying to gouge an unsuspecting buyer? >>
ChrisL,
I guess you believe it is okay for the seller in the linked auction to fraudulently claim the coin has an asset value of $150,000? BTW, do you sell on eBay? If so, do you sell third world slabs, by any chance?
Russ, NCNE
The seller is not committing any fraud. The prima facia case for fraud is:
1) a false and material misrepresentation made by one who either knows it is false or is ignorant of its truth,
2) the maker's intent that the representation be relied on by the person and in a manner reasonably contemplated,
3) the person's ignorance of the falsity of the representation,
4) the peron's (buyer's) rightful or justified reliance, and
5) proximate injury to the person.
There is a difference between puffing up a claim to make a sale, and fraud. This is definitely not a case of fraud.
No, I do not buy or sell coins on ebay.
<< <i>The seller is not committing any fraud. >>
Of course he is. The auction meets every single one of the criteria you listed. Read it.
Russ, NCNE
If someone wants to pay $1,000 for a properly graded $500 PCGS or NGC Morgan, no one will interfere. A willing buyer and seller determine the price. When a seller CLAIMS his coin (in a suspect holder/slabbing service ) has a value of $150,000 that's fraud. Stevie Wonder can tell this coin isn't a proof 70 and it sure ain't no deep cameo. PCI probably has hundreds of these "unicorns" out there. If they really were 70 D/C don't you think ONE would have crossed into a real 70 D/C slab by now?
Joe
<< <i>3) the person's ignorance of the falsity of the representation, >>
<< <i>5) proximate injury to the person. >>
Theres two good reasons there.
Don
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