Grade the Draped Bust Quarter

Baley · December 20, 2003 1:41PM

this just in:

What do you grade her?

braddick · December 20, 2003 1:51PM

Assuming the shield has not been tooled, GD06.

Baley · December 20, 2003 1:59PM

I am 99.99% sure that the shield has not been tooled.

Sphinx357 · December 20, 2003 2:01PM

Shield certainly looks out of place.

Baley · December 20, 2003 2:02PM

It's right over the eagle's breast, isn't it?

sinin1 · December 20, 2003 2:27PM

I graded it higher than anyone so far as VG-8

but also add that it has been cleaned and scratched and probably won't make it in any slab

IMO

Baley · December 20, 2003 2:29PM

won't make it in any slab

LOL! no, knowing me, no it won't.

edit: cleaned?

they didn't do a very good job, did they?

sinin1 · December 20, 2003 3:00PM

no they didn't - the lines going from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock are very obvious

I realize PCGS has some more leniency on 'rare' coins, but I doubt this will make it

LUCKOFTHEIRISH · December 20, 2003 3:33PM

G 7

originalisbest · December 20, 2003 4:10PM

Those hairlines are not at all unusual for a coin of this type, and they are hardly worth condemning the piece. Not only that, the appearance is MILES better than most of this type and it would EASILY make it into a top-tier slab, I would think.

Baley, what slab did you have to crack it out of to snap the photo?

originalisbest · December 20, 2003 4:11PM

Oh yeah, grade. VG-8.

1946Hamm · December 20, 2003 9:54PM

I would say G-6 and cleaned as already stated.

tjkillian · December 20, 2003 10:20PM

That coin is completely original and has not been cleaned. It is a choice specimen. Remember that it is an open collar strike so don't condemn the coin for the rim merging with the lettering. I would give it a VG-08 and would slab by any service. A very nice coin.

Tom

Barry · December 20, 2003 10:50PM

G-4. Letters merging into rim, etc. Too weak for a VG.

BigD5 · December 21, 2003 12:01AM

G/6, and the hairlines won't stop this particular coin from slabbing if that was the owner's choice.
Not enough central/hair detail on the obv. to grade higher. A nice, old, coin.

Baley · December 21, 2003 1:56AM

Thanks for your votes and comments everyone! Here's how I evaluate this coin:

First, the variety, it's a B-1, die state IV, with the "obverse drastically reground to remove clash marks; lower left curls incomplete" The reverse is the same exact die (four olive berries) used to strike the 1805 B-4 as well as the 1806 B-1 coins. So these dies were not "fresh" when this planchet was put between them, with an open collar, and the screw press tightened. Uncirculated examples of this variety look VF or EF if you just go by the obverse detail.

Ok, what is the detail or wear grade? Taking the above into account, I'd have to go with VG-8 on the detail overall. There is some uneven wear, possibly due to a slightly uneven strike by misalligned dies, resulting in the lower obverse and upper reverse looking closer to Fine, and of course the shield detail looks Fine or better, as mentioned, and you can read IBUS UNUM, but the upper obverse and lower outside edges of the reverse have the lettering merging with the rim, which characterizes a Good or even AG coin. But with Miss Liberty and the Eagle fully outlined and a touch of wing feather and lots of neck feather detail, I like the coin as a full VG or even VG+ taking the variety into account.

Now on to the surfaces: Some folks mentioned it looks like the coin was cleaned. Well, the first giant photos may have been misleading in this regard, I did bounce a lot of halogen light off the coin to take those close-up shots, here is what the coin looks like in diffuse sunlight from a shaded window:

As you can see, it has a much more natural appearance when viewed this way, and I believe that the coin has not been cleaned, but instead circulated fairly heavily in it's early lifetime and picked up some rubs and scrapes, none of which are non-commensurate with a VG coin. There is the little cut on Liberty's cheek and a few other old marks, and some newer highpoint friction probably from collectors placing the coin on surfaces and into and out of holders, but none of these are severe distractions on a coin of this type and condition; I do knock a point off for them though, and the fact that TED and MERI are weak and barely readable, only partly compensated for by STATES OF being so strong.

In summary, I like this coin as a VG7 and don't think full VG8 is unreasonable, given the above.

Those who voted AG3 and G4 (and there are 18 of you) please PM me and offer to sell me all of your AG and Good draped bust quarters!

sinin1 · December 21, 2003 2:10AM

thats a nice write up - are you going to submit it anywhere? wouldn't really change the value much would it? still around a $200 coin isn't it? or special die pairings bump value?

Baley · December 21, 2003 2:26AM

are you going to submit it anywhere? wouldn't really change the value much would it? still around a $200 coin isn't it? or special die pairings bump value?

No, I don't usually submit coins, would rather spend the potential slabbing fees on more coins, instead. Sometimes I break coins out of TPG holders and enjoy looking at them and displaying them in albums. This coin was bought raw, saving me and my hammer the trouble, and yes, it's worth around $200, in or out of a slab. The variety is not scarce, in fact this is the most common die pairing and die state for an 1807 quarter, but for some reason I did not have an example before now (I collect draped bust quarters and halves by die variety) Here's a picture from a while ago, have added a few examples since this was taken:

Baley · May 4, 2004 7:12AM

Those who voted AG3 and G4 (and there are 18 of you) please PM me and offer to sell me all of your AG and Good draped bust quarters!

there are now 23 votes for AG3 and G4. those of you who grade it thus, PLEASE offer me your "AG" and "Good" bust quarters! I will pay ASK

(I have yet to be offered a coin that looks like this at a plain ole "good" price)

mgoodm3 · May 4, 2004 7:31AM

I don't have much experience grading early stuff. I just pretended it was a barber and figured AG because of the lettering merging with the rim. It seems that I grade too low on low grade stuff and too high on higher grade stuff. From now on I will call everything VG, F or VF.

JadeRareCoin · May 4, 2004 7:37AM

Draped bust quarters are one of the toughest early coins to grade. You absolutely MUST grade these by variety, and not conventional standards for generic type.

Often, I will not grade a coin like Baley's coin, since it is so subjective. Rather, I will sometimes grade similar coins as $300 or $275 or $420. Know what I mean?

Colorfulcoins · May 4, 2004 7:40AM

Having just sold several AG03 quarters, I think the coin would grade GD06 at PCGS.....and that's how I voted!

JrGMan2004 · May 4, 2004 7:47AM

I think VG8... maybe G6 though... not sure on Draped Busts...

Numismanic · May 4, 2004 7:51AM

I'm not good with draped bust coins, I'll guess VG-8.

Don

DominusDeus · May 4, 2004 8:11AM

Nice quarter. I'd guess G-4.

I need two more major quarter designs to "fill" my quarter collction (which so far, is only 8 silver quarters..). I need a Variety I Capped Bust and a Drapped Bust quarter. And maybe a variety I seated liberty (from the 1830's or 40's). A drapped bust is a tad bit out of my league, right now...

lordmarcovan · May 4, 2004 8:41AM

Hey, you didn't have an "AU55" option for those of us who are Numistrust, TruGrade, or ACG graders!

(Whoops, I'd better shaddup- don't wanna get sued!)

Seriously, I chose G4. On second glance, I think G6 would have been a better choice. Borderline VG. Nice looking coin, to these eyes.

I have one that's just a little bit weaker than that. It's an 1806. I graded mine AG3/borderline G4. Call it "AG3 PQ". An attractive AG, believe it or not. (SSP: If anybody wants it for just over a hundred bucks, it's up for grabs...)

BillJones · May 4, 2004 11:20AM

The coin looks like a Good, but if you go by net actual wear it's a VG-7. The reasons are that the coin had no protective rim to shield the lettering and stars around the rim, and there is a strong possibility that the coin was well struck in the centers, especially the reverse and weakly struck on the boarders.

This coin is a Browning variety #1. I own a Browning variety #2 that is in AU-55. The coin has proof-like surfaces in the centers and is very sharply struck there. The rims are weak, and it would not have taken much time in circulation to have worn them down into the tops of the letters.

Coins like this drive honest coin dealers crazy. Poor informed collectors and slimy bargain hunters will try to tell you that this is an AG-3 coin because there is wear into the tops of the letters. The slab grade could be anything from G-4 to Fine –12.

roadrunner · May 4, 2004 11:35AM

The ANA grading guide would condemn this and any other coin with less than full rim detail as AG or lower. Back in my early days I believed that ANA guide crap too. In 1988 I passed on a 1797 half in this identical shape offered as a low end good. Someone else came in right behind me and later sold the coin as a VG+ and made a quick $3,000. I'd bet that full rim detail criteria still exists in the ANA guide.

roadrunner

BillJones · May 4, 2004 11:42AM

<< <i>The ANA grading guide would condemn this and any other coin with less than full rim detail as AG or lower. Back in my early days I believed that ANA guide crap too. In 1988 I passed on a 1797 half in this identical shape offered as a low end good. Someone else came in right behind me and later sold the coin as a VG+ and made a quick $3,000. I'd bet that full rim detail criteria still exists in the ANA guide.

roadrunner >>

The half dollars are whole different ballgame. Generally half dollars have rims that protect the letters around the rim better. They also not did have the same strike problems as the early 19th century quarters.

The situation with the 1797 half dollar may have had something to do with the great rarity of the coin. If it was defect-free, but worn many collectors and dealers will "stretch" to buy and sell the piece because the chances of finding very many of them are pretty low.

lordmarcovan · May 4, 2004 11:43AM

My fourth edition ANA guide makes no mention of the full rim thing.

Just looked at my coin- it's a B-9. Or so I've noted on the flip, after being told by somebody. I don't have the Browning book myself.

dorkkarl · May 5, 2004 10:21PM

ttt because it is an excellent, educational thread.

imo, the coin grades g-6 by type, vg-8 by variety.

K S

Crazy4Coins · May 5, 2004 11:35PM

G4 is my guess

Grade the Draped Bust Quarter

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