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SS Republic Gives Up First 1,700 Gold Coins
itsnotjustme
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Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
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I hope the coins aren't ridiculously priced like the SSCA ones.
A National Geographic film team is chronicling the expedition. Sure hope this is aired for the public when it's done. NG puts out first-rate video.
Obscurum per obscurius
Mike - Are you saying that you would prefer a coin coated with a layer of rust, sand and shell bits? If so, I'm sure it can be arranged for!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
While it is likely that most of the coins are from the "P" mint, does anyone really know at this point? Are there smaller denomination gold coins on board? What if there were 10 each 1854-O and 1856-O $20? Or forty each? Or how about a bunch of Pacquet reverse 1861's? This could really disrupt the pricing structure of a rare issue. If I were a collector of Type I $20's, I do not think that I would buy any coin until I knew exactly what was on board. As an example, Legend has had two high-grade 1851's in their inventory for quite a while. I think that merchandise will be very difficult to move right now.
While everyone compares this to the much-publicized SS Central America hoard, the discovery of these hoards, in my opinion, is much better for the discoverer than it is for the collector. The company will reap fortunes for the coins, no doubt about that. The individuals who buy the coins will get coins at a very high price with little chance or possibilty to get out of the coins, if necessary, for anywhere near what he/she paid for the coins. As evidenced by the large volume of SSCA coins for sale in every major auction, and the relative lack of bidding on these, the supply overhang of these coins must be tremendous.
I am pessimistic about the whole event and its impact on collectors. The one potential upside is that it might bring a few collectors into the rare date gold arena.
There are also collectors who collect coins from shipwrecks.
However, as RYK stated above this will have a huge impact on the 19th century gold coin market. Nothing is more devastating to a market than uncertainty. I expect this market to become very difficult to sell into until every coin on board has been identified. Could be a great buying opportunity for you risk takers if you guess the correct dates (the ones not onboard in quantity). If I was holding a large collection of mid 19th century gold at this time I would be very nervous.
I doubt that a ship carrying gold and silver coins from New York to New Orleans would bother to include any O mint coins when the New Orleans mint was right there in New Orleans.
Also your comment:
<< <i>The individuals who buy the coins will get coins at a very high price with little chance or possibilty to get out of the coins, if necessary, for anywhere near what he/she paid for the coins. As evidenced by the large volume of SSCA coins for sale in every major auction, and the relative lack of bidding on these, the supply overhang of these coins must be tremendous. I am pessimistic about the whole event and its impact on collectors. The one potential upside is that it might bring a few collectors into the rare date gold arena. >>
Didn't this comment describe the GSA dollars hoarde exactly?
GSA hoard in 1970's
Redfield hoard in 1970's
Continental Illinois hoard in 1980's
Brother Jonathan hoard in 1990's
SS Central America hoard in 2000's
While each one of these hoards DID disrupt the coin market in specific areas, NONE of them caused a major collapse market wide. In fact, the earlier dollar hoards caused an influx of new collectors, taking the market and prices to new highs.
With good marketing, most of the SS Republic will likely end up in the hands of people OUTSIDE of the mainstream collecting fraternity.
Notice I said most, not all, of them. Yes, alot of them will hang around the auctions and bourse floors, but I believe the majority of them will be sold to new customers, and maybe even bring in some new members to the "mainstream collecting fraternity". This in not to say that these buyers will make an instant profit. Values will propably come down, only to find higher levels later.
Just my opinion. Remember the world is getting smaller these days and it is alot easier to reach people now than even yesterday.
Great discussion topic.
njcoincrank
While it is unlikely that there would be many New Orleans gold coins aboard, it is not impossible. There were three Dahlonega coins on the SSCA!
As FatMan points out so succinctly, Nothing is more devastating to a market than uncertainty.
It's certainly possible that there could be O-mint gold on the ship, depending on circulation patterns: I presume that gold would have been used for bank reserves and the payment of customs duties. Depending on what the customs house received (it should have only been US specie post 1857) and what their local needs were, they could have shipped some of their receipts to New York to meet other government obligations. If so, that gold could have gone to Europe or stayed in New York (and then shipped on the Republic).
As far as O-mint gold being in New Orleans in 1865, I would expect that it would only have been in private hands and well-hidden. Don't forget that the Confederates would have taken all the gold they could find between secession and evacuating the city in 1862, so there wouldn't have been any bullion in the mint or specie in the Customs House or gold reserves in the banks.
I'm rather intruiged that the government was even shipping specie to New Orleans in 1865. Certainly the government would have been using greenbacks and fractional currency to meet all of its obligations except for interest on the public debt. (I can't imagine there would have been that many holders of US government bonds in New Orleans in 1865!) I suppose the specie was intended to be bank reserves, although at the time, commerce in New Orleans was very, very minimal.
According to a book on Louisiana banking history that I have, 7 of New Orleans' 13 banks had closed by February 1863. In 1862, receipts at the port were the smallest since Louisiana was purchased from France and trade increased only slightly over the next three years. In 1865, most of business there was was conducted by foreigners, most of the New Orleans merchants having left the city. Apparently, the city wasn't even self-supporting in 1865 - the military authorities were compelled to feed a large part of the population.
As far as an inventory of the Central America, I've never heard of one, although I suppose you could put one together from the various auctions and the PCGS population reports (Anyone know if they break out the Central America coins they've slabbed?)
I suppose that it'll be different for the Republic, as the salvors are a public company. The article in the NYT today said that there would be much more reporting because of that.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
There are four separate concentrations of coins visible on the site. To date, more than 750 gold coins have been recovered from one of these areas. Approximately 60% are Coronet Head 20 Dollar Double Eagles, and the rest are Coronet Head 10 Dollar Eagles. In a different area from the gold specie, more than 900 silver Seated Liberty Half Dollars have been recovered. Both gold and silver coins were minted in a wide variety of cities and years.
Link to Odyssey website
So you Liberty Seated Dollar collectors may have your world turned upside down, too!
Edited to say Liberty Seated Half Dollar collectors.
Don't give me a heart attack!
You said half dollars, not dollars.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
In Laurel
MD
Just a fist full of Dollars
Sorry about the chest pain. The problem is, until I know what is on board, I will not be comfortable purchasing anything 1865 or earlier. It's back to Carson City gold!
Robert
This is true of most of the shipwreck coins. Marketers sell them via mail order, cable coin/collectible shows, etc. stressing their blah blah blah and a gullible public snaps up the coins in hopes of getting a big score years down the road. Then you have the people who buy them as an "investment" or buy them as a gift for loved one. These coins will be off the market for years as they typically go to noncollectors.
On the bright side we can be assured any "Rare" coins will be sold outside of mass market channels.
All in all great find but if past shipwreck coins indicate, not a great purchase.
There really is no need to panic.
In order to move these coins the MAJORITY will be sold through non conventional selling methods. Like the 1857S Central America hoard, they were sold through telemarketers like Blanchard to people who do NOT normally buy coins. The world wide market for coins like these can easily far exceed a supply of 20,000 coins-if there really is such an amount.
The only dates that WILL be affected are the dates found in mass quantity. But even after time, they will stablize and enjoy a healthy market.
its not like we all didn't know these treasure ships didn't exist. It was just a matter of time before technology allowed scientists to be able to recover these coins and artifacts.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Lots of 1861 Paquet's?
Mostly 54-O and 56-O $20's!
it's like they say buy low sale high this is or could be the buy of a life time on gold the market will
even out at some time so now would be a great time to pick up a few nice coins
A doubt anyone should worry about any silver coinage. While gold does not react to salt water, silver does. Little chance, actually non, that there will be any Gem Unc seated coins found.
Most of the gold would have come from the US Treasury. As most gold coins stopped circulating in the early 1860's, the coins could range from 1850 20's to Gem 1861 20's, and anything in between. This includes the possiblilty of all the branch mints that operated before 1865.
Remember when the Treasury released silver dollars in the early 1960's? There was no way of telling what was going to come out next. Well I am sure that when these coins on the SS Republic were taken from the Treasury that nobody made sure they were newly minted pieces. The Treasury employees probably took the coins nearest to the door, and depending on movement of the coins during a Treasury inventory, that could be anything.
Only time will tell. And instead of thinking about the possible negative impact, try and enjoy this "history in the making".
njcoincrank
a shipping manifest that would give close to exact numbers and types of coins
on board ?
That would help in preparing the market for the coming influx of coins.
<< <i>I'm rather intruiged that the government was even shipping specie to New Orleans in 1865. Certainly the government would have been using greenbacks and fractional currency to meet all of its obligations except for interest on the public debt. >>
But New Orleans was a major port city and customs duties still had to be paid in gold. So gold was needed in the city.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm not sure you can compare the SS Central America and the Republic hoard to the other hoards mentioned. In fact I don't think the full story has been told with respect to the SSCA hoard. I'm still getting calls and mailings from Blanchard and Monaco trying to sell these coins that according to the initial calls I got 2 ~ 3 years ago were selling out fast.
I know the CU price may not be the most accurate way to compare but these are the CU prices in 2001 and today for 1857-S Double Eagles:
2001/2003
MS-61 $4500/$4000
MS-62 $5400/$4500
MS-63 $7750/$6500
MS-64 $10,750/$8,000
MS-65 $16,500/$11,500
Even with the added interest in the SSCA coins outside the normal collector base (generated by a book, a couple of TV specials, high profile auction and tremendous TV and radio advertising) 6,000 or 7,000 $4,000+ coins is a lot of coins for the market to absorb without an erosion in price. If a significant portion (25% ~ 30% or more) of the 20,000 ~ 30,000 coins end up being one issue of a coin that was selling in the $4,000 + price range price range I would expect to see a drop in price. The coin market even with the added historical interest is just not big enough to absorb the number of coins being discussed at these price levels.
Bill - Worried yet?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
i wouldn't expect current prices to be affected drastically in either direction. i would, however, expect to see some coins made available to collectors who had previously thought them unobtainable.
al h.
Let's see what happens.
Tom
Check out the Southern Gold Society
The SS Central America was in about 8000 ft. of water. Non of the silver coins found were GEM. In fact, all the coins in the bags, (foreign, etc) were heavily corroded.
Virtually all the old world shipwrecks that had silver on them gave up only corroded coins.
I find it hard to believe that the o-mint half shown is from the SS Republic. I AM NOT CALLING THEM LIARS, IT IS JUST HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE. That coin disputes all (very little) that I know of chemistry.
Only time will tell. But it would be kind of neat if there was a hoard of some better date silver coin in GEM.
njcoincrank
I was thinking the same thing...might say the same about the "S"-mint eagle. Could they be trying to pump up their stock price? It's working.
Disclosure: Long OMR (just for fun).