Frederick Coin Show..
ksteelheader
Posts: 11,777 ✭
Word has it that this coin also changed hands today. Ken
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We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Aren't the secret servce looking for those?
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It is in a 2 X 2 Whitman snap together holder.
That's a real nice piece of history!
Cameron Kiefer
I consider you a closet Lincoln man,but a collector of the first order.You would have been as excited as I was just to see and hold it in your hands.
fivecents
Yes,they could confiscate it.
I was definitely elated to see and hold it.It was a high end coin to say the least.IMHO MS66 at the very least.Probably an MS67 grade would be given it if slabbed by PCGS.If it would be graded at all.It was definitely the real deal.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Cameron Kiefer
Didn't HRH say that PCGS would grade/encapsulate it?
You are right about that.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Send it in to be graded and authenticated. This is a neat discovery.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Neat until a lawyer at PCGS says they must call the SS to take it away
...Ken
The Official Frederick Coin Photographer! Nice ring!
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
<< <i>Neat until a lawyer at PCGS says they must call the SS to take it away >>
Do same day service. David Hall said he would slab these kinds of coins for free. If they confiscated the coin, then it would hurt PCGS in a big way down the long road. PCGS grades, and does not determine legality of certain coins.
Cameron Kiefer
Great Coin - thanks for showing it
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since 8/1/6
Mike
Cameron Kiefer
Thanks for sharing.
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We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Great photos, Ken. I am thrilled for those of you who got to see it in person.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Jeremy
Most excellent!!!!!!!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Ken- Thanks for sharing & NICE pic! What was the grade?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Camelot
<< <i> After years of rumors, it is nice to finally see a pic. >>
YES. Thanks for posting that Ken.
Shame...
Free Trial
<< <i>Don't be surprised if the SS calls you on Monday
this is a quote from the new Pattern Coins, by Judd, Bowers:
"Today, one confirmed specimen in private hands has been publicized, and undoubtedly others are waiting in the wings to see if they are "legal" to hold, although logic suggests that there should be no question in this regard, as the pieces were distributed freely."
(italics are mine), is there something about these coins that i don't know, with regard to their "legality?"
thanks for the pix, Ken!
z
It's a complicated and tangled story. The "one confirmed specimen in private hands" that you mention might possibly be the one that Frank Gasparro had, that I mentioned above, or it may not. Ed Reiter of COINage had the opportunity of interviewing Frank before he died, and the highlight of his interview was when Frank reached in his desk drawer and pulled out the aluminum cent that he had. It may be of interest to note that Ed never mentioned this until one of his monthly columns just after Frank died.
The legality issue is where it gets complicated. Look at all the hoopla that occurred over the 1933 Saint Gaudens double eagle. It has been well documented in several articles that I have read, that there WAS a window of opportunity to legally obtain these after they were struck and before FDR recalled them. A loophole in the recall allowed for certain collector type coins to be kept (sorry for the wording, I don't have the facts in front of me.) I would think that the 1933 double eagle would easily fall into that category, and yet look at what has happened since then. A number of them were confiscated and destroyed. The only one that was finally declared legal to own was the one that was auctioned, and that was only because of the unique circumstances surrounding it, centering around an export license that had been granted in the 1940's allowing it to be exported out of the country.
In 1965, President Johnson ordered that Peace silver dollars dated 1964 be struck at the Denver mint. 316,076 were actually struck and ready for release into circulation. Again, from what I have read, there was a small window of opportunity for the Denver mint workers to legally obtain one before they were recalled and melted. Any Denver mint worker that had one or more would have had to turn them back in, but I am certain in my mind that not all of them were turned back in.
Here is where it gets kind of crazy. Go back to 1913 and the five Liberty head nickels. The Philly mint had prepared dies for Liberty head nickels dated 1913, in case they were needed, but in the end they were not needed and there were no plans to strike 1913 Liberty head nickels for circulation. Someone (the name escapes me) who had access to those 1913 Liberty head dies took them and made those five nickels illegally. This example differs from the two examples above (1933 double eagle and 1964D Peace dollar) in that the above two examples WERE struck with the intent of releasing them for circulation and the five Liberty head nickels WERE NOT. And yet, those five Liberty head nickels can be bought and sold, and displayed without any fear of confiscation.
The situation with the 1974 aluminum cent is similar as that for the 1933 double eagle and 1964D Peace dollar in that the cents were struck with the intent to circulate and a number of specimens were handed out to congressmen and the like, providing a window of opportunity to legally have one in one's possession until they were recalled. Again those who had them would have had to turn them back in, but of course not all of them were.
The bottom line, and the reason why I stated earlier that the legality issue is complex and crazy, is this: if it's okay to buy and sell and display freely five 1913 Liberty head nickels that were clearly made illegally, why is it not okay to do the same with the 1933 double eagle, the 1964D Peace dollar and the 1974 aluminum cent? I'll let it rest there.
The only thing I will give the SS is that they do appear to take a consistent approach. They will always go after 1933 $20s. They have never gone after the 1913 nickels, or most of the mainstream 19th century patterns, even though many of those coins have provenances which are legally shaky. So, apparently there is some internal "list" of coins which are OK and coins which aren't, and it seems they stick to it.
If someone has the courage to make a "test case" on the 1974 1c, and is successful, expect many more to come to market.........I for one would not want to chance it.
it seems to me that this is quite different from each of the issues you mentioned, (1913 nickel, 1933 saint and 1964 peace dollar) as this "coin" is clearly a pattern coin in that it was struck in a metal composition that never circulated.
It seems that many of the "classic" patterns are minted in a variety of metals and that these are never looked upon as somehow illegal to own.
I guess applying "logic" to this circumstance is where the authors go wrong in the new pattern book, as there is obviously no logic being employed with regard to what is, at present, considered "legal" to own.
z
Stewart
You and Coinosaurus do raise good points, and that is why I stated that it's a complex issue. The only logic I see is the one Coinosaurus pointed out: that the SS goes after certain coins and leaves others alone, and they stick to that. It's why they go after some and not others that is confounding. I guess that's the point I was trying to make. And yes, the aluminum cent being of a different metal composition may make its situation different from the others, as well. I do agree with Coinosaurus that if I did have any of those coins (except the 1913 Liberty nickels) I wouldn't want to be the one testing the legality waters, so to speak.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Perhaps people were paid to look the other way is all I can think of. And now the window of opportunity
to confiscate them now is basicly closed it seems.
The SS I think can do just about anything they want to with regards to the `74 aluminum pattern.
They could say its a counterfiet, not of a legally monitized composition therefore a forgery, blah blah blah,
case closed.
Who knows.
I just would hope this one is on the `not sought-after` list and this one gets holdered and sold.
I also hope to one day see a `64D...(D wasnt it?) Peace Dollar get holdered for sell.
.....and that the SS would grow a pair and get those 1913 V nickels outta here.
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I say this, not to promote my show, B U T ! I have talked with somebody who wishes to display one in the near future. Possibly at one of the upcoming Frederick, Maryland Shows. If, it happens, we will not openly publicize it. I have not seen the coin, as it resides in a collection in the deep south, but have been invited to see this person's entire collection. For me, there is no doubt this person has an authentice 1964 Peace dollar.
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I would like to invite everybody to the January 2nd and 3rd Coin Show in Frederick, Maryland. If you would like to work a table and see the show from a dealer's vantage point, contact me. I apologize to those who came and I couldn't spend time with this Saturday. The auction had me totally consumed after 1pm. American Auction Associates will be in charge of the auctions in the future and I will only be working the floor. This will assure I have time to meet and greet everybody.
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Once again, I say this from the bottom of my heart: Thanks to everybody who made this weekend's show a huge success! Don, Ken, Wolf, Tootawl and others, you took some of the pressure and stress off me just by being there to calm me down.
I'll admit that the coin looks much better in aluminum than I would have guessed. Fantastic detail and unusually nice luster.
What would it grade? Hmmmmmm. Although the strike and luster are good, there are some serious contact marks on Abe's shoulder. MS65 looks about right.