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Coin Dipping follow-up, or............I Had A Dream!!--or--Haven't we come a long way to the Seven-Y
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Why is it that threads on the topic of dipping always work their way to the same inevitable conclusion? The discussion always ends up with chemists of one level or another talking about things on the atomic level!!
Grading Room Supervisor---Can you, with the naked eye, identify the coin as having been dipped?
::::::::::grader answer A----no.
Grading Room Supervisor---OK, slab it.
::::::::::grader answer B----yes.
Grading Room Supervisor---OK, body bag it.
The End............or so you thought!!! Fools.
....................and I had a dream.
There is a solution for this rampant dipping of coins------a microscope!!!!! to grade our coins?? Man, i can hear the moaning and gnashing of teeth already as MadMarty starts a thread about not getting in under the 180 day guarantee!! The proliferation of AU's would be astounding as previously unseen contact marks, planchet flaws and areas of weak strike are finally seen in their un-glorious truth. On the upside, crackouts and requests for the Presidential Review and Regrades drop to a mere pittance of their former levels. Designations such as FB, FS, FH ad naseum vanish into obscurity as Homer Hall wheels out his ultra-powerful electron microscope to shows around the country. Frost breaks, never seen before are revealed and the true CAM/DCAM grade becomes a thing of the past. NGC and the other services march in lock-step with PCGS and raise fees to a flat $100 per coin, no exceptions so don't even ask!!!
The coin market collapses under the weight of newly revealed overgraded coins. The "Scope Wagon" becomes familiar at shows nationwide, daring the unsavvy collector to take his chances and try, just try to beat science. Shouts of "Porosity, Porosity" are heard nightly in neighborhoods around the country. And, in the waning days of the once great "Hobby of Kings" the great melt has begun.....................
Al H.
Is it or isn't it?? Only the "Scope" really knows!!!
Grading Room Supervisor---Can you, with the naked eye, identify the coin as having been dipped?
::::::::::grader answer A----no.
Grading Room Supervisor---OK, slab it.
::::::::::grader answer B----yes.
Grading Room Supervisor---OK, body bag it.
The End............or so you thought!!! Fools.
....................and I had a dream.
There is a solution for this rampant dipping of coins------a microscope!!!!! to grade our coins?? Man, i can hear the moaning and gnashing of teeth already as MadMarty starts a thread about not getting in under the 180 day guarantee!! The proliferation of AU's would be astounding as previously unseen contact marks, planchet flaws and areas of weak strike are finally seen in their un-glorious truth. On the upside, crackouts and requests for the Presidential Review and Regrades drop to a mere pittance of their former levels. Designations such as FB, FS, FH ad naseum vanish into obscurity as Homer Hall wheels out his ultra-powerful electron microscope to shows around the country. Frost breaks, never seen before are revealed and the true CAM/DCAM grade becomes a thing of the past. NGC and the other services march in lock-step with PCGS and raise fees to a flat $100 per coin, no exceptions so don't even ask!!!
The coin market collapses under the weight of newly revealed overgraded coins. The "Scope Wagon" becomes familiar at shows nationwide, daring the unsavvy collector to take his chances and try, just try to beat science. Shouts of "Porosity, Porosity" are heard nightly in neighborhoods around the country. And, in the waning days of the once great "Hobby of Kings" the great melt has begun.....................
Al H.
Is it or isn't it?? Only the "Scope" really knows!!!
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Comments
<< <i>Why is it that threads on the topic of dipping always work their way to the same inevitable conclusion? The discussion always ends up with chemists of one level or another talking about things on the atomic level!! >>
Because! Thats why!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
It could get to the point of `too much information`
I say we ban the use of anything more than a 15x loupe for grading.
And NO HIGH POWERD STEREOSCOPES!!!!!
lol
We can send a man to the moon. . .
peacockcoins
quite often the upside is the downfall. such would be the doom brought about by the Scope Wagon. women and children would flee and grown men would weep at it's arrival.
al h.
..Dreadful
Doesn't PSE have something like that?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
no doubt about it, i'd better call customer service and ask a few questions and no more double bean burritos after 10 o'clock for me!!! i'm getting tired of having that dream every night.
al h.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
A couple of observations:
The idea of weighing a coin wouldn’t work. The correct weight of any coin is not an absolute number, but a range (i.e. 20 grams +/- 0.1 grams).
As far as looking at coins through an electron microscope, that idea isn’t at all out of the realm of possibilities. I used to operate several scanning electron microscopes (SEM), a transmission electron microscope (TEM), and two atomic force microscopes (AFM) at the University of Tennessee’s Center for Electron Microscopy.
TEM’s would not be useful since you would have to destroy the coin before hand. The AFM’s would be of no use since their magnification (resolution) is so great, you wouldn’t know what you were looking at. The SEM, on the other hand, would be perfectly suited for this job.
Typically, the most significant problem in using an SEM is that the object to be examined must be made electrically conductive. Thus if you wish to look at a bug, you have to sputter coat him with gold, platinum or whatever.
Anyway, since coins are already conductive, you’re already halfway there. All you would have to do is insert several coins into the vacuum chamber where the electron beam forms, wait ~30 minutes to evacuate the air and in a couple of minutes you could have surface images ranging from 10X to 100,000X magnification for each coin.
As I recall, we used to rent out beam time on the SEM for about $100.00 per hour. A company like PCGS could offer an option whereby you could submit a coin and request a surface analysis to better determine if your coin had been dipped. Assuming demand for such a service, the cost would not be terribly expensive.
Unfortunately, HomeRunHall wouldn’t be able to wheel his SEM around country, but still…
Ususually because people begin to use absolute terms like "impossible to tell" when discussing whether a coin has been dipped.
It may be difficult to tell or the visual evidence may be insignificant with respect to how it affects the appearance of the coin as viewed with the naked eye or 10x magnification. "Impossible"...no.
That said for some collectors knowing the history of the coin and how it was handled and what alterations/changes have taken place either intentionally or by happenstance is another interesting (IMHO) aspect of collecting. Some have a preference for coins (especially older classic coins) that don't necessarily look like they came from the Mint yesterday but show the signs of having survived 100, 150 or 200 years of our history when Intercept Shields and dehumidifiers didn't exist.
Is one preference better than another (as Baseball would argue some imply)? Different yes, better...I guess the marketplace will have decide that. Say you have two 150 year old coins and one was carefully preserved and somehow managed to survive with brilliant luster while the other coin was oh so carefully dipped to remove a light layer of toning and restored to a brilliant luster. You go to sell the coins and fully disclose the history of the coins including the fact that one coin was dipped. Both are beautiful coins and the evidence of the dipping could only be seen under 100x magnification. Both coins are offered for the same price. Some collectors given this choice would prefer the coin that wasn't dipped. Some collectors might even pay a premium for that coin. The next collector might care less about the dipping as long as the coin looks to the naked eye or under 10x magnification identical to the undipped coin.
Which coin is more original? Some might say they are both equally original. Some would argue the undipped coin. At the core of this discussion is how the opinions regarding originality affect the market. Arguing, since many coins get dipped and it's difficult to tell that the coins have been dipped, that discussions regarding originality are meaningless clouds the bigger issue of the intentional altering of a coin's surfaces to enhance its market value.
If no coins were ever dipped what would the value of the remaining blast white coins which through careful storage or unintentional happenstance be worth today? Arguing that since absolute certainty may not be readily available in some cases (regarding whether a coin has been dipped) doesn't counter the fact that many collectors value not just a coin's appearance but the history behind that appear and how the coin has been handled. It's not IMHO just about appearance only.
I would also like to add that even using an SEM would not absolutely and with certainty confirm whether or not a coin had been dipped. Again, it's a case of degrees.
As I've always said, as long as the coin "looks" original (white, toned, or otherwise), I'm satisfied. I'm just concerned about the possibility that a coin might be ruined if over dipped.
<< <i>Chemical dips such as those that are based on thiourea or similar compounds would not remove surface atoms from the coins. They merely convert the ones that are there in an oxidized state back to an unoxidzed state, a process commonly referred to as reduction. >>
True, but the reduced atoms are no longer strongly bonded to the metal of the coin itself and are easily carried off in the solution. If you look at a worn out solution of jewelustre you can actually see the silver suspended in the solution, and if you try dipping a copper coin in the worn out dip the silver will actually create a silver wash or plating on the surface of the copper coin.
Collectors Universe's stamp grading company.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
i find myself afraid. how long can i stay awake?? will i dream "The Dream" again? will what Power there is allow me to see a bit further into the tunnel and glimpse the coming light? in my heart, though, what i fear most is one simple truth. i know that I'll Dip Again. those that have faced down the peril of the first dip warned me of the consequences, but i heeded them not. i was stronger then. today, i feel helpless. one dip is too many and 100 not enough!! i must dip. i will dip!!
but the thought, i can't shake the thought. it returns again and again so i type, trying to free myself of it's torture. should i have one burrito or two, bean or beef?? can anyone save me from this anguish?!?!
al h.
The reduced atoms should be as readily bonded to metal as they were when the coin was struck. If what you say is true an amount of metal lost to the dip solution that is readily visible to the naked eye should be measurable by weight loss from the dipped coins.
Dave
We are ignoring so much of the coin when we only use the surface. That's only 1% of the coin! The other 99% - the interior - ought to be graded also. By taking advantage of the concepts used in grading diamonds, we can use an X-ray machine to identify imperfections in the metal that are below the surface of the coin. Why should we ignore a tiny fissure in the metal just because it's not on the surface? Is that not part of the coin as well? Shouldn't my coin be graded higher since it was minted from a perfectly mixed alloy that has no interior imperfections, while yours has some nasty copper spots two millimeters below the obverse (according to the X-ray machine, that is)?
It will be a great advantage because the coin doctors can't mess with problems that are below the surface. We'll know the interior of the coin is truly original and never dipped.
This giant leap forward will make it possible for us to let the professionals handle all the grading.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Yes silliness. It's silly to talk in absolute terms about something (grading coins and judging originality) that relies to some extend on objective and subjective judgements about a coin. No one alive today was standing at the screw press when the first dollars were minted. The best examples we have today have gone through some changes so we don't have an exact and absolute standard to judge what is absolutely original.
"If what you say is true an amount of metal lost to the dip solution that is readily visible to the naked eye should be measurable by weight loss from the dipped coins."
How precise is the instrument you're using to weight the coin (but we don't want to get that exact
So let's step away from absolutes and discuss what we can know with a high level of certainty. The experts (and I don't consider myself one of them) have seen tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of coins (maybe more) and have build up a photographic library of knowledge in their heads about what an original coin should look like. Is this absolute certainty? No. But it's ludicrous to say that some amount of weight (and in some case substantial weight) cannot be given to those knowledgable opinions just because absolute certainty isn't possible.
Those that advocate dipping want to focus on those coins that get dipped and to the nake eye show no visible signs of dipping. They say we should just trust that the person doing the dipping did a "proper" job of dipping, rinsing and drying the coin and that nothing nasty will happen to the coin six months or a year from now. They say this has become an acceptable form of conserving which technically is not accurate because dipping a coin to remove toning does nothing to protect the coin from damage. Conserving is a process used to remove foreign material from a coin that would continue to damage the coin. That is not true of toning that is already on the coin.
Am I getting to scientific? O.k. then, what has dipping done to the value of blast white coins that through careful handling and preservation managed to remained blast white for 50 or 100 years?
Dipping is altering the surfaces of a coin to enhance its appearance (in the opinion of the dipper) and market value "period." It's gained some acceptance in the industry but IMHO it's the same as whizzing, frosting or ATing a coin to enhances its value. I heard that there are some folks working on laser technology to repair scratches and dings on a coin. In a few minutes they can turn that MS-63 into a PQ MS-66 and it might take 100x magnification to see the evidence of the work done to the coin. I guess this will gain market acceptance also.
Market acceptance or not dipping IMHO is essentially no different than the other methods used to alter the surfaces of a coin. It's a minor alteration. It's a slight munipulation. It's an almost imperceptible movement of a minute layer of surface material and of course I did it right. Yea, yea, yea....
"Yes silliness."
hey Tom and Paul
i hope you realize that levity was the sole intent of this thread. and to prove it, i'll invite all respondents thus far to Taco Bell in Baltimore!!!
al h.
The bad gas generated by a trip to Taco Bell is something else to be avoided....just like dipping
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
al h.
<< <i>i hope you realize that levity was the sole intent of this thread. and to prove it, i'll invite all respondents thus far to Taco Bell in Baltimore!!! >>
Reminds me of the line from "Demolition Man".
"During the restaraunt wars, Taco Bell was the sole survivor. All restaraunts now are Taco Bell."
Your original point here is well taken. The relative crudeness of 150 year-old coins is part of what makes them so fascinating. Is a scanning electron microscope necessary to understand or enjoy them? LOL, I hope not.
My inquiries on the subject are just a quest for a deeper understanding. Most people probably don't care about the nuts & bolts of where luster comes from. To me, the metallurgy, chemistry, flow lines, die states, methods of planchet & die preparation is all fascinating. My motivation is a better understanding of "originality" and what it really means. Doctoring to me is a huge short-sighted, unethical, selfish deplorable act. These little bits of history are finite in number and now irreplaceable. Understanding the effects of tarnish and dipping as it pertains to conservation is important. It's entirely possible that the most helpful thing we could do to conserve these items might be to coat them in lacquer or a similar preparation. Dipping them every few years is probably a bad idea..... But what do you do with important coins headed toward terminal toning?
I'm often skeptical about what gets bantered about as "common knowledge." Real in-depth scientific analysis and and hobbies don't frequently coincide.
The discussion might seen inane to most, but it helps me make sense of the big wide world, the market, preservation states, the doctors, what is best for future collectors, etc.
Taco Bell does sound good though. Too bad it's an hour away.
<< <i>I had just wrapped up my sophmore year of HS when this post was made. Given the date and time, I was probably just waking up from my screwed up schedule. I partied so much that summer my sleep schedule turned into something like 7am-3pm. >>
BAHAHAHHA I just finished up my sophomore year of college and literally just woke up from sleeping for 18 hours hhaha. Finals/ raging will do that to you.
one thing I enjoy about archive threads is the members who replied and have since faded away.