Basic coin grading tips- part ll - still more replies
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
For those of you who did not see part one of this discussion, here is a link:
Link
EXAMINING COINS
Now it's time to discuss examining/viewing coins properly.
First, make sure you don't have your pet dog, cat (or snake) anywhere near where you will be studying your treasures.The same goes for babies and significant others - this is serious business and you need to be able to concentrate!
Lighting has already been discussed but I did neglect to mention that blinds or shades should be drawn so that your light source is not interfered with by any outside light.
If you have coins that are uncertified and completely out of any type of holder, I'd recommend that you have something soft and yielding (a towel, a felt tray, etc.) underneath where you will be holding the coins, in case you drop one (or two). The best/sharpest coin graders are not necessarily the most sure-handed!
I do recommend that you remove uncertified coins from their 2x2's, etc., to get a proper look - even the thinnest layer of plastic can mask flaws and prevent you from getting the view that you should.
Be conscious of how easy it is to put fingerprints on your beauties. I have seen a lot of people start off by holding coins at their edges, but gradually lose concentration and allow their long and or fat fingers to move from the edge to the surface of the coin.
To get the best possible look at a coin it is imperative that you tilt and gradually rotate it so that the light bounces off of it from as many angles as possible. A coin can look completely different, if looked at head-on, vs. from an angle. Light reflects differently and colors and luster can look different, as well. You might see hairlines, cleaning, wipes or other problems from one angle that you wont see from another angle. Look at a coin from all angles, top to bottom, right side up, sideways and upside down, etc. This is a simple concept but you'd be surprised at the number of people who don't do it right.
I know some graders who start off looking at the reverses of coins first just to get a different perspective. I know others who begin, looking at coins sideways instead of up and down, for the same reason. I don't usually do those things but it's probably a good idea to try it once in a while, just for a change in your routine.
When you take your first look at a coin, do so without a glass/magnifier. Eyeball it for a few seconds on each side to get a general first impression - to see how it hits you. Don't worry, initially, about looking for flaws and problems - get a feel for the big picture and the eye-appeal or lack thereof.
I cannot over-emphasize the fact, that in many cases, the first, split second look of a coin is extremely important. It will either grab your attention or not. If it doesn't, it might not be so special and it might not impress the next viewer, either. If it is special looking and grabs your attention right away, it very well might have the same effect on the next person. Many buying decisions regarding many valuable coins are made in a matter of seconds, based on that all-important first impression.
Look at the focal points - the main design elements (the cheek on a Morgan dollar, Ms. Liberty on a Walking Liberty Half dollar, the Indian on Indian gold coinage, etc.) If you have questions about the most important areas for grading for a given type of coin, please feel free to ask.
Next, look at the other areas, toward the borders. As you are doing this, you should be slowly and gradually rotating the coin and tilting it back and forth (as mentioned previously) at the same time - try to get the light to reflect off of the surface from as many angles as possible.
Now, for those of you who are dying to do so, it is ok to pick up your magnifiers - go for it, but don't forget about how the coin first struck you, when you looked with your naked eye.
I'm not exactly sure what I will do in part lll and am open to some suggestions (I can't promise that I will be able to address what is requested but will try). I can tell you, that, while I know a number of people would like images and a discussion of cleaning (among other things), I don't have such pictures and, quite frankly, things like that are much better taught in person, face to face. My apologies that I can't help in that fashion. But, please feel free to ask questions, make comments, etc.
Link
EXAMINING COINS
Now it's time to discuss examining/viewing coins properly.
First, make sure you don't have your pet dog, cat (or snake) anywhere near where you will be studying your treasures.The same goes for babies and significant others - this is serious business and you need to be able to concentrate!
Lighting has already been discussed but I did neglect to mention that blinds or shades should be drawn so that your light source is not interfered with by any outside light.
If you have coins that are uncertified and completely out of any type of holder, I'd recommend that you have something soft and yielding (a towel, a felt tray, etc.) underneath where you will be holding the coins, in case you drop one (or two). The best/sharpest coin graders are not necessarily the most sure-handed!
I do recommend that you remove uncertified coins from their 2x2's, etc., to get a proper look - even the thinnest layer of plastic can mask flaws and prevent you from getting the view that you should.
Be conscious of how easy it is to put fingerprints on your beauties. I have seen a lot of people start off by holding coins at their edges, but gradually lose concentration and allow their long and or fat fingers to move from the edge to the surface of the coin.
To get the best possible look at a coin it is imperative that you tilt and gradually rotate it so that the light bounces off of it from as many angles as possible. A coin can look completely different, if looked at head-on, vs. from an angle. Light reflects differently and colors and luster can look different, as well. You might see hairlines, cleaning, wipes or other problems from one angle that you wont see from another angle. Look at a coin from all angles, top to bottom, right side up, sideways and upside down, etc. This is a simple concept but you'd be surprised at the number of people who don't do it right.
I know some graders who start off looking at the reverses of coins first just to get a different perspective. I know others who begin, looking at coins sideways instead of up and down, for the same reason. I don't usually do those things but it's probably a good idea to try it once in a while, just for a change in your routine.
When you take your first look at a coin, do so without a glass/magnifier. Eyeball it for a few seconds on each side to get a general first impression - to see how it hits you. Don't worry, initially, about looking for flaws and problems - get a feel for the big picture and the eye-appeal or lack thereof.
I cannot over-emphasize the fact, that in many cases, the first, split second look of a coin is extremely important. It will either grab your attention or not. If it doesn't, it might not be so special and it might not impress the next viewer, either. If it is special looking and grabs your attention right away, it very well might have the same effect on the next person. Many buying decisions regarding many valuable coins are made in a matter of seconds, based on that all-important first impression.
Look at the focal points - the main design elements (the cheek on a Morgan dollar, Ms. Liberty on a Walking Liberty Half dollar, the Indian on Indian gold coinage, etc.) If you have questions about the most important areas for grading for a given type of coin, please feel free to ask.
Next, look at the other areas, toward the borders. As you are doing this, you should be slowly and gradually rotating the coin and tilting it back and forth (as mentioned previously) at the same time - try to get the light to reflect off of the surface from as many angles as possible.
Now, for those of you who are dying to do so, it is ok to pick up your magnifiers - go for it, but don't forget about how the coin first struck you, when you looked with your naked eye.
I'm not exactly sure what I will do in part lll and am open to some suggestions (I can't promise that I will be able to address what is requested but will try). I can tell you, that, while I know a number of people would like images and a discussion of cleaning (among other things), I don't have such pictures and, quite frankly, things like that are much better taught in person, face to face. My apologies that I can't help in that fashion. But, please feel free to ask questions, make comments, etc.
0
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>If you have questions about the most important areas for grading for a given type of coin, please feel free to ask. >>
Your opinion on 2 coins, Winged Liberty dimes and Frankies...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Your post wasn't off topic, at all. It was right on, as a matter of fact.
There is nothing wrong with wearing gloves, as far as I'm concerned. Some types might make it awkward to handle coins, though and, depending upon what they are made of, you could end up with lint, etc. on your coins. If you find some that you are comfortable with and want to use them, by all means, do so.
If you can, I'd like a comment on weak strike versus slight wear...
I used to collect Buffalos and the branch mints were notorious for a weak strike. The same goes for Charlotte and Dahlonega gold...If this is too odd or un-needed that is fine, it was just something I wonder about often.
John
Great stuff. Almost like forum therapy! I do believe that someone will come up with a way to mechanically
turn a coin while an uploadable 15 second movie is made for an auction.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I want to emphasize one thing Mark said (primarily because it a problem for me, I guess). HAIRLINES! Learn to spot hairlines!
Many of you remember Russ' post where he showed how a heavily hairlined coin can look flawless in a photo given certain lighting. It's the same when looking in person. You must make sure you have looked at the coin with light reflecting from ALL angles, or you could easily miss some hairlines. That could result in overestimating a coin by multiple grade points.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I'm a big believer in eyeballing the coin without a glass. I will put on my reading glasses these days though, or else all would be lost.
But, I truly get most of the information I need just with the regular view. I am not however, a variety specialist, or the type of collector that actually has to use magnification to better pursue their areas of interest. The longer you collect a certain type of coin, certainly the more comfortable you get with a quick once/twice over assessment.
I believe this strongly, the coins you love will usually speak to you right away. I have many times stared and stared at coins trying to convince myself I liked them. Inenvitably, I find if I have nagging doubts about a coin from the first look over, they will never go away. Sometimes trust your gut.
Thanks for these threads, Mark. Keep them coming.
Clankeye
<< <i>I have many times stared and stared at coins trying to convince myself I liked them. >>
This happens to me more times than I care to admit. About half of the time I also ending up buying the coin I'm questioning, only to usually regret it later. I call this "coin show madness".
Mark, what percentage of the coins you see do you actually end up buying?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
I (and others) really appreciate you taking the time to share
your wealth of knowledge......especially when it comes to grading!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
Keep 'em coming, Mark. Thanks
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Coinguy1, this is the most bizzare thing I ever heard!! I can't wait to try it at this next lot preview!!
What needs to "grab" you when looking at gold? Silver can tone so many varied ways unlike gold. Also what do you first look at when examining a Liberty gold or a $2.5 / $5 Indian gold?
As always, thanks for being so selfless with your time and knowledge, you are da'best!
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
i also might add
mark has posted these two exact coin grading coin topics part one and two on the ngccoin.com boards and therre were some great comments there and you might want to go over and take a look............. really informative especially so about one collecytor that found out after he got home with a coin that he didnot examine carefully that there was a surprise for him
you might want to read that post on mark felds
part two thread over and over again as this might help others avoid this common place occurance!
as i have seen this happen many many many times over the years
also mark hope you read my comments on the other boarda about dointg this part 3 and beyond and my suggestions on what to do to keep this an ongoing thing! i think it might help others make better informed decsisons !!
and maybe this might be compioled in a future book! as for me right now with all this grading tyhing and how this effects greatly desirability and price!! this is really very important and anything like this which helps others make better informed decsisons in coins this helps evetryone in the long run and makes the hobby more effective and positive for many entering it at a fast pace and with this information you are posting it might make it a more positive thing for many and keep them here maybe longer and hopefully for a lifetime
this coin thing! and mark feld!!!!!!!!!!!!! this should be the title!
sincerely michael
<< <i>Look at a coin from all angles, top to bottom, right side up, sideways and upside down, etc >>
Yes sir, now that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!
So I guess when I have been looking at Barber Proofs for hairlines this way, and getting a stiff neck from from looking at the coin from all angles, I've been doing the right thing and not just being an old time grumpy tech grader like Dog97 calls me?
<< <i>so I'm showing a big fat butt crack. >>
Shucks! I missed it!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>may I suggest a discussion of grading factors and their relative importance to overall grade ... luster, toning, strike, severity and number of marks and their location, etc. >>
I agree! More please!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Johnscoin and Twowood - you asked about wear vs. weak strike. That is something that is much less difficult (notice I didn't say much easier!) to explain/teach in person. However, I will say that generally, wear will manifest itself in a slightly different color on the high points of a coin. It might appear darker on a copper coin or slightly white or grey looking on a gold coin, for example.
It certainly helps to know the striking characteristics of a given coin, too. If you are dealing with/examining a coin that you know typically comes weakly struck, it will hopefully be easier not to confuse that weakness in strike, for wear. I also recommend looking for other telltale signs of circulation if you think you are seeing wear - look for disturbances in the fields (such as lots of small/fine circulation abrasions) and loss of luster.
Twowood - with respect to knowing a good vs. a weak strike for a particular coin or issue (you mentioned Peace dollars) : the best advice I can give in that area is to find a good book in your main area(s) of interest and to examine as many certified coins as possible. Eventually, you should get a feel for which dates typically come well struck and which don't.
Kranky mentioned hairlines - that seems to be one of the most difficult areas for many people. Once you learn how to properly examine a coin (without a magnifier, initially) by tilting and rotating it as described, so that the light bounces off of it at all angles, it will become easier to detect hairlines. Hairlines are often the determining grade factor on many Proof coins and can easily and often account for more than a one point difference in grade.
nwcs - you asked what to do about poor lighting conditions. I would recommed that you find a small, portable lamp that you are comfortable with you can take to shows with you. Also, if you are at a table at a show and the lighting is poor - if there are covers on the tables, in order to drown out disturbing overhead light, you might be able to place part of the cover over your head and/or the lamp you are using at the table. It will look funny but can be very effective. There have been 2 or 3 times when the lighting at a show has been so bad that I literally took my lamp and crawled under a table to examine a valuable coin. Not recommended if you have a bad back or are wearing white pants! You could also use a book or something else to block the overhead light that is troubling you.
pmh 1nic - I am glad that you are pleased with the free information I have provided. But, I assure you, the fee you pay for the ANA seminars is well worth it. I have taught the advanced grading class 2 or 3 times and been a visitor at the basic grading class as well. Whatever you have learned from me will be dwarfed by what you can learn in those classes. There are some great instructors who will be showing you lots of coins and discussing some of these very same issues. it is much easier and more efficient to do this stuff when you have coins in front of you that you can examine, discuss and pass back and forth.
Clankeye and a few others have commented about trying to convince themselves to like or keep a particular coin. Don't do that. If the coin is not unique or irreplaceable (very few are), don't talk yourself into it - pass on it. I have given the same advice to many clients of ours, as well - really!
Android/Andy - you asked what percentage of the coins that I see, do I buy. The percentage is very small, for a couple of reasons. First, many people do not handle the type and quality of coins that we do, so I have to look through boxes and boxes (and through many display cases) just to locate coins that might fit the bill. Then, of those that I do find, many are not suitable for my subjective standards of grade and eye-appeal, taking into account the type of material we want to be able to offer to our clients.
As an example, I would guess that we purchased approximately 100 new coins at the FUN show. We no doubt looked through many thousands of coins to come up with those.
Catch22 - you mentioned that people should examine the rims of coins - good catch! I neglected that and I apologize. Many coins which might be wonderful in every other way, have rim problems. You also asked about recommend books. There have been a number of good threads on that topic - perhaps someone could link them or send a P.M to you.
DesertLizard - you asked what grabs me when I'm looking at gold coins, which don't tone like silver does. I love the occasionally found gold coin with that lovely, subtle rose hue to it and those with a golden-orange patina/hue. I also like flashy, prooflike pieces and those with great luster and exceptionally clean surfaces. For the older (pre 1839) types, I look for original pieces that haven't been cleaned or altered - that leaves me liking a very low percentage of the available population!
On another note, be sure to let me know how your next lot preview goes!
Michael - as always, thanks for your enthusiasm and support. But, no books for me!
Everyone, please feel free to keep the questions and comments coming and I will attempt to respond as best I can.
Here's a question that I would like as detailed a response as possible. Of the four grading factors; Luster, strike, surface preservation, and marks, how are they ranked and how much do they effect the grade? What about coins with no marks, yet poor strike? Great luster, but very baggy?
Tom
Do you have a personal coin collection? Or do you just find coins for your clients?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
stman - sorry about your stiff neck but you must be doing something right! Remember, though - you can move the coin and keep your neck still.
Dog - your technique sounds fine but PLEASE wear a belt next time!
Don - yes, you can learn to recognize hairlines consistently, without magnification. As a matter of fact, if you try it without a glass you might even have a better chance. When you aren't concerned about trying to view an isolated part of a coin with magnification, you have the opportunity to move the coin around while still getting a look at the entire surface and thereby increase your odds.
THE RELATIVE IMPORTANCE OF FACTORS THAT GO INTO GRADING
A number of you have asked about this - the relative importance of the various factors that go into grading - things like luster, strike, toning and marks, including their location and severity.
I can almost guarantee you, that you will get different answers/rankings if you ask different people. However, I firmly believe that EYE-APPEAL is, by far, THE most important factor. And, why shouldn't it be? It is comprised of a number of the different components of grading, anyway. Eye appeal includes things like color, luster, how your eye is affected by abrasions and/or weak strike, etc. In other words, the grading determinants other than eye-appeal are actually components of eye-appeal - eye-appeal is the big picture. Don't sell it short.
Regarding the other factors that go into grading - I think that their importance can differ from coin to coin and from coin type to coin type.
For example, strike is often the key issue with Buffalo nickels and some Walking Liberty half dollars, among others.
Any coin, no matter how clean or well struck, if lacking sufficient luster, should be down graded accordingly.
Likewise, no matter how lustrous, pretty and well struck a coin is, if it is peppered with contact marks, the grade is affected. The number, severity AND location of marks/abrasions can make a difference. That is one reason why I don't think books can be very helpful for the grading of mint state coinage. If a book tells you a con is MS63 if it has such and such number of marks, that doesn't do you much good. Why? Because one large mark in the wrong place, can hurt/affect the grade more than several small ones that are well hidden.
The key is to weigh all of the factors that go into grading and not give too much weight to one, at the expense of the others. Don't focus just on the one negative you might find - give credit for the positive features.
If a coin is beautiful and perfect except for one minor but noticeable abrasion or imperfection, don't knock it down in grade from 70 to 65 just for that one flaw. That's probably not fair or accurate.
Andy, in answer to your question - I currently have only two coins in my collection. I like and want to own many coins that I see. But, I try to avoid buying most of them because I do have a collector mentality and want to avoid any conflicts and make sure I don't lose focus for my work (which I truly enjoy). I hope that made sense!
Tom
Great Post, great replies.
I had taken a one year break from Numismatics, and This board is helping get me back up to speed with what's happening in the hobby. As usual, grading is always a hot topic. Nice to know some things never change.
terrific posts, mark. appreciate your efforts.
K S
I strongly support Mark's recommendation to take the grading courses at the ANA Summer Session; if you think this is helpful imagine 5 days with Mark and his peers going over thousands of coins and having each critiqued by these experienced graders. The fun parts come when there are disagreements about appropriate grade and the discussions that ensue. Read Kranky's threads of his last year experience (archives) for a preview. In addition you meet the greats, near greats and other collectors of coins. Great experience. Keep your ego at home and you will learn lots.
Eye appeal is hard to discus. You know what looks good to you and Mark knows from experience what appeals to most of his clients and peers but you may have a different eye. Most of us agree on the extremes :'Beautiful"; "Ugly" but in between well ....Note the differences in opinion on topics of toning.
Thanks again Mark for your contributions to this board and my knowledge .
<< <i>Andy, in answer to your question - I currently have only two coins in my collection. I like and want to own many coins that I see. But, I try to avoid buying most of them because I do have a collector mentality and want to avoid any conflicts and make sure I don't lose focus for my work (which I truly enjoy). I hope that made sense! >>
Mark
thanks for the interesting and informative post, as always, and of course now the inquiring minds are wanting to know ----- exactly which two coins ??????????????????
thanks
z
Clankeye
Edited to add: If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask them here or send them to me by PM. I will do my best to answer any which I receive.
I'm glad I was able to stiffen your resolve.
PS: This is one of my bookmarked threads that I refer to quite frequently.
Russ, NCNE
we have paws. Whos paw do you think was used to model the Boyds Bears paw print logo?
Camelot
I missed part 2 the first time around.
Reading these threads got me thinking.
I need to slow down a bit when I'm grading.
I rush things and probably shouldn't.