Die Cracks and Grading

geb209 · December 11, 2002 2:09AM

My quick and simple question is whether/how die cracks affect the grade of a coin? For example, assume the ONLY problem with a coin is that it has a die crack. MS-70? or MS65? What would PCGS view be? Will a die crack reduce a coin's grade the same amount as an equivalent (in size) bag mark?

nwcs · December 11, 2002 2:15AM

From what I understand, a die crack will affect a coin's grade unless (here's the marketing part) it is a well known and well loved die crack like the scarface morgan.

nwcs · December 11, 2002 2:16AM

Hmm, I wonder if I can go through this thread without die crack jokes...

coppercoins · December 11, 2002 2:22AM

I'm sure you speak the truth with regard to PCGS, but I find it ridiculous to allow a die crack to affect a coin's grade. Plain and simple. Die cracks happened in the mint - they are on the die itself. How can that be compared to bag marks, hits, rim dings, and all-out wear? Somebody needs to be realistic.

tjkillian · December 11, 2002 2:23AM

David Hall has said that die cracks are grade Neutral, i.e. that they neither help nor hurt a grade. I believe that a coin could still grade MS-70/ PR-70 with a die crack. Die cracks do affect the value. Some folks look for them and give extra money. For example, I am looking for a low grade 1861-O quarter with a die crack from Miss Liberty's nose to the rim. Why? Because that was the same die that the Confederacy used to mint their four original Confederate half dollars, meaning those coins with the die crack were actually minted by the Confederacy. Other die cracks hurt a value of a coin.

Tom

geb209 · December 11, 2002 2:40AM

Thanks for the info. The reason I asked is that I have a seated dime that is graded by NGC as MS62. Viewing the coin with the naked, one only sees what appears to be a bag mark on the reverse (no other distracting features). Upon closer inspection, the mark is actually a die crack (FYI: there is another mark on the coin that is visible only with magnification). I was contemplating breaking it out and sending it to PCGS.

shylock · December 11, 2002 4:33AM

Check out the die crack on the left reverse of this 1867 PCGS MS65RD Indian cent. Very unusual in its square shape, and the wreath has a melted look as a result. It certainly didn't affect the grade or the price, and may have given the price a bit of a boost. I found it strange this wasn't even mentioned in the auction lot description.

Nysoto · December 11, 2002 4:53AM

Die cracks can be evidence for a late die state which can lead to a weak strike. Grading services do take points off for weak strikes.

Elcontador · December 11, 2002 5:04AM

I think it depends on the series of coins you are talking about. Many Unc. Capped Bust coins I've seen have die cracks -- I've seen more Unc. Capped Bust Quarters with them than without them -- and it doesn't affect the coin's grade. I think the comment re the die state is accurate.

I think they give the coin some personality, and as long as they aren't ugly, they shouldn't reduce the coin's value. I picked up a particular Capped Bust Dime in 4 because although the strike was very good, it had three separate die cracks on its obverse. The best example of old coins & die cracks I can think of is the Randall Hoard 1820 N-13 Large Cent, where you have a die crack connecting all of the 13 obverse stars.

airplanenut · December 11, 2002 6:42AM

They can also make it seem as if people on the coin are pissing! That really adds to the value!

coppercoins · December 11, 2002 8:44AM

<< <i>Die cracks can be evidence for a late die state which can lead to a weak strike. Grading services do take points off for weak strikes. >>

Die cracks can indeed be, and often are, evidence of a later die state, but the die state of a die has nothing to do with striking pressure. It can and will have something to do with the loss of detail on a coin - but that doesn't affect whether or not the strike is full.

becker · December 11, 2002 9:01AM

I would suggest how well or poorly a coin was made has nothing to do with how well it has remained preserved after leaving the mint. Certainly how well the coin can have a profound influence on the value of any coin and should remain a subjective matter not included in the grade.

Thank you for allowing me to use your interesting question as the reason for making my first post to this site.

Does this baby have a spell checker? If knot I could be in real trouble!

clackamas · December 11, 2002 9:34AM

<< Die cracks can be evidence for a late die state which can lead to a weak strike

Die cracks can also be a sign of a very high striking pressure resulting in a fantastic strike and hence a broken die. With Lincoln cents die cracked coins can be a sign of an annealed coin from so much striking pressure that the metal actually becomes harder and less likely to ding or get marked up. I make a point to look at die cracked coins more closely in rolls because of this. Die cracks, as was stated by Dvaid Hall in the Q&A forum a couple of weeks ago and previously in the thread are neutral. The holds for die polish as well. IMO die polish can actually add to a coins eye appeal. 1935 Lincolns are famous for wild die polish lines that can be really neat.

Elcontador · December 11, 2002 9:40AM

Agree w Clackamas.

I have a raw 43 D Merc which has die cracks on the obverse and an excellent strike for reasons he described (it is in the MS 65-6 range, which is why it stays raw).

presleyh · December 11, 2002 11:10AM

It would seem logical that a die crack, being a defect would detract from a ms70 coin. I found 15 Kennedy halves with the same die crack and they range from a 1/16" to about a 3/8" length. I think these coins have been together since they left the mint, even though they were not in an uncirculated roll. Kind of neat but probably ms 63 at best.

hughesm1 · December 11, 2002 6:05PM

IMO, die cracks add character to a coin. I don't think it should lower the grade of a coin, or enhance the grade.

Nysoto · December 12, 2002 12:40AM

Examples of late die states with extensive die cracks that do affect the strike include the 1806 Overton 118a shattered die variety half dollar. I have an example (ICG 40) that appears bi-level, half of the coin on both the obverse and reverse is sharply impressed, the other half is mushy, lacking many details such as a sharp ribbon impression. High striking pressure would not help with this shattered die.

Another example I have is an 1811 O-112a, the late die stage R.5 variety with obvers cracks everywhere. The reverse is sharply struck and would grade EF40, the obverse is so shattered it would only grade VF30 at best, leaving a net grade for the coin as VF30. Sheridan Downey sold one of these in his last auction and graded it similarly.

Many other Overton die varieties exist where die cracks do affect the strike, and affect the grade of the coin. These coins are spectacular, and the lower grades do not detract from their desirability.

Barndog · September 20, 2006 9:39PM

Die cracks help me to more readily attribute some half dimes. I like the fact that my preferred series (capped bust half dimes) seemingly has more die cracks per pound than any other US series.

1798CentCollector · September 21, 2006 12:24AM

I have not found die cracks to negatively affect the grade of a coin - at least in early copper. It's possible that a die defect could cause loss or obliteration of detail in a coin, and either add to or detract from desirability depending on you view of what constitues a perfect or desirable coin. However, a die crack is a result of a defect in the die and not the coin and the grade should not be reduced.

Die Cracks and Grading

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