Pictures of Fake Slabs (big files)

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 3:25AM

These are better than I thought they'd be. The coin is also much better than the early cast counterfeits that were seen earlier. While many here (such as TDN) could pick this out as a counterfeit coin, most would not. The slab looks and feels fine. Very subtle differences in the edge of the holder. I have no doubt that someone could hit a major show and dump a couple of dozen at smaller dealers and then vanish thousands of dollars richer.

Real one on the left, fake one on the right

braddick · April 7, 2008 3:28AM

Very helpful.
Thanks!

BECOKA · April 7, 2008 3:32AM

Wow, when you look close and know what to look for it seems obvious, otherwise they look exactly the same and that is going to cause real trouble. I almost never look to see if a PCGS slab looks real or not.

edited, you might want to add counterfeit and PCGS to your title so it shows up in searches.

Placid · April 7, 2008 3:32AM

Why do you have those?

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 3:58AM

<< Why do you have those?

>>

To see it and photograph it. Then to pass along to PCGS.

Placid · April 7, 2008 4:02AM

<< 

<< Why do you have those?

>>

To see it and photograph it. Then to pass along to PCGS. >>

Where did you get it from? Did you take a trip to china?

Just curious if this was a local find.

denga · April 7, 2008 4:35AM

UtahCoin April 07, 2008

These are better than I thought they'd be. The coin is also much better than the early cast counterfeits that were seen earlier. While many here (such as TDN) could pick this out as a counterfeit coin, most would not. The slab looks and feels fine. Very subtle differences in the edge of the holder. I have no doubt that someone could hit a major show and dump a couple of dozen at smaller dealers and then vanish thousands of dollars richer.

One more reason for eBay to ban all slabs coming out of China.

Denga

guitarwes · April 7, 2008 4:40AM

This is a big time major problem that needs to be nipped in the bud quick, fast, and in a hurry.

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 4:43AM

I bought it in a private transaction from the maker in China.

Somebody on eBay may have just got burned on the exact same thing...

Link

bumanchu · April 7, 2008 4:45AM

<< 
One more reason for eBay to ban all slabs coming out of China.

Denga >>

AS if the fakers couldn't divert them to another country or even ship them here to an accomplice.....

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 4:47AM

<< I bought it in a private transaction from the maker in China.

Somebody on eBay just got burned on the exact same thing...

Link >>

Are you saying Greg,, a forum member here and the seller in the auction you linked, sold a fake one based on the slab/coin you showed here?

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 4:48AM

<< 

<< I bought it in a private transaction from the maker in China.

Somebody on eBay just got burned on the exact same thing...

Link >>

Are you saying Greg,, a forum member here and the seller in the auction you linked, sold a fake one based on the slab/coin you showed here? >>

Saying it could be....
Mighty interesting coincidence

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 4:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< I bought it in a private transaction from the maker in China.

Somebody on eBay just got burned on the exact same thing...

Link >>

Are you saying Greg,, a forum member here and the seller in the auction you linked, sold a fake one based on the slab/coin you showed here? >>

Saying it could be....
Mighty interesting coincidence >>

Then that isn't good.....I don't think Greg would knowingly do so and that would mean he got fooled by the slab/coin UNLESS he had the "original" that the fakes are based off .....

People getting fooled....this is going to get nastier going forward

bstat1020 · April 7, 2008 4:54AM

Perhaps one should PM or email Greg about this instead of accusing him of anything publicly?

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 4:56AM

just did

bstat1020 · April 7, 2008 4:56AM

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 4:58AM

If I'm wrong (and I have made my share of mistakes) I certainly apologize to Greg. My enthusiasm got the best of me when I saw the exact same coin as the fake come up on eBay. I have emailed Greg and apologized for my jumping the gun.

MadMarty · April 7, 2008 4:58AM

Maybe when Hillary get elected, she will sign a law that all coins sold on E-Bay must have stickers!!!

Batman23 · April 7, 2008 5:02AM

The problem is that most people will look at the coin to see if the condition is consistant with the grade on the label. The slab itself will not be closely examined as many people have come to expect no problems with a PCGS Slab. If I did not know what to look for and did not have a real slab with me at the time I am not sure I would notice the difference. For a person that is unaware of fake slabs they wouldn't even give it a second look. Imagine a collection coming to you with a hundred nice PCGS slabs, semi key/key coins and this one is in the middle of the group. All being real except this one. Would the dealer catch it?

Just wait till they start putting OGH labels in those slabs

DeusExMachina · April 7, 2008 5:05AM

Wow, that is scary on many fronts.

57loaded · April 7, 2008 5:05AM

they got it too right.....

thanks for the photos

rgCoinGuy · April 7, 2008 5:06AM

The bar code is completely different on Greg's compared to the known counterfeit.

DeusExMachina · April 7, 2008 5:09AM

The label in the ebay auction looks different from the fake slab label in your original post. I won't mention the details but look closely - they are different.

*edited b/c I can't spell. Wow.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 5:11AM

Just read the thread. I'm in Kansas trying to shoot a turkey...so bear with me while I try to access my ownership history of this coin. I'm 90%+ sure I bought it out of a Heritage auction within the past couple of years, but I'll do a search there and see it I can post a link to the auction. I'm on a POS computer out here, so if someone can find the Heritage auction before I do, please post the link and I'll follow up. But I'll say one thing for sure. The initial coin posted is clearly a counterfiet, it has the three 'dig lines' sloping downward to the left behind the eagles head. I posted an image of this counterfeit Trade dollar in response to one of Keoj threads on the 1876 trade dollar. Maybe someone can link that quicker than I can too. The counterfeit coin in the OP thread was a deceptive job that caused quite a problem 2-3 years ago before someone did a great article on it and listed the critical diagnostics. I actually have one of the counterfeit ones in a NCS slab.

Let me edit to add that the other one 'no brainer' die marker on these counterfeits is the HUGE die defect in the foot of liberty figure on obverse. That defect is not found on genuine coins. These are just the big 'arms length' die markers of that counterfeit that I can remember from memory. Nobody who knows these die markers will ever be fooled by one of these coins as they are visible without even picking up a loupe.

The coin I auctioned is not counterfeit. There are massive differences in the coins and a complete absence of the die markers that identify the counterfeit. I've got only an hour or so here at the lodge before we go back out so my posts and or responses will depend on my availability today.

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 5:12AM

<< The label in the ebay acution looks different from the fake slab label in your original post. I won't mention to the details but look closely - they are different. >>

Would have been nice, as well, if Greg has posted a complete reverse of the slab picture...as per rules

(I wanted to see the PCGS hologram sticker)

storm888 · April 7, 2008 5:16AM

"This is a big time major problem that needs to be nipped in the bud quick, fast, and in a hurry."

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

It's likely too late.

The solution is a new slab that has some kind of extra security features.

I will be VERY hesitant to buy/sell, until the problem is solved.

DISCLAIMER: I have a long position in CLCT.

ricko · April 7, 2008 5:17AM

Amazing.. this is going to take some serious work on the part of the TPG's... and very careful scrutiny on the part of collectors/dealers. Cheers, RickO

STONE · April 7, 2008 5:18AM

UtahCoin, thanks for this thread, it's really helpful.

This is one reason why 99% of my collection is raw!

I'll need to look closer at slabs now when I'm buying.

UtahCoin · April 7, 2008 5:21AM

If anybody is looking for me, I'm leaving for L.A. now to testify at a murder trial, be back Late Tuesday night

robkool · April 7, 2008 5:21AM

The coin in the fake holder does'nt look right from the start... There is no original look to it, as if the coin was cleaned. Defintely way off on the grading...

Goldbully · April 7, 2008 5:24AM

<< If anybody is looking for me, I'm leaving for L.A. now to testify at a murder trial, be back Late Tuesday night >>

Wow, Utah............you are one busy dude!!!!!

Did you witness said murder???

DJCoinz · April 7, 2008 5:27AM

The differences look very subtle and could get by many...scary.

Michigan · April 7, 2008 5:27AM

<< "This is a big time major problem that needs to be nipped in the bud quick, fast, and in a hurry."

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

It's likely too late.

The solution is a new slab that has some kind of extra security features.

I will be VERY hesitant to buy/sell, until the problem is solved.

DISCLAIMER: I have a long position in CLCT. >>

PCGS has a serious problem on their hands, there are basically no options on going after the people in China legally since their
govt. puts up so many roadblocks on that front.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 5:30AM

O.K. Here is the Heritage link for the auction where I bought the coin.

Heritage auction where I bought the coin.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 5:36AM

And here is the link to the earlier thread where I posted what I thought was somewhat significant contributions towards how to identify this particular fake.

Previous thread where this counterfeit coin was discussed and where I gave everyone 'no brainer' ways to tell if the 1876-CC DDR was a counterfeit!

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 5:40AM

<< Amazing.. this is going to take some serious work on the part of the TPG's... and very careful scrutiny on the part of collectors/dealers. Cheers, RickO >>

PCGS and NGC will need to start donating funds to political parties. Otherwise, the political folks in power will just ignore them. once they have the funds donated (ie....just shy of bribes), they may get traction from bills introduced to help stem the tide.
Regrettably, this is the way the world works now

Nothing is for free

streeter · April 7, 2008 5:42AM

Basically, as I see it..............this is a private party---with the wink wink knowledge and lack of proper policing by a foreign government undermining the integrity of an American public company.

It's not the first time, won't be the last and really ----------the federal govt needs to understand how this would lead to the undermining of public confidence in our public companies.

That could REALLY cause a lot of problems.

Michigan · April 7, 2008 5:46AM

I wonder how many knock off fakes of clothing etc. are found at Walmarts and similar stores that do a ton of business from China?

greghansen · April 7, 2008 5:48AM

The differences look very subtle and could get by many...scary.

The differences in the SLABS may be subtle...but the differences in the counterfeit and genuine 1876-CC DDR are NOT subtle and could NOT get by anyone interested enough to learn the die markers.

This is an instance where it is easier to tell the COIN is counterfeit than to tell whether the SLAB is counterfeit.

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 5:50AM

Greg,

Glad to see you on the thread so quickly and giving info on it before things might have turned a bit negative.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 6:01AM

Just happened to be taking a mid-day break from the hunt and thought I'd see how the EBAY auctions were doing. When I logged in there, someone had sent me a message on the EBAY system saying I had sold a counterfeit coin that was being discussed on CU...so I came here to see what the he__ was going on. The message didn't even tell me which coin I'd sold was supposed to be countefeit...so I had to track that down through the forum.

In this case, collectors are actually 'lucky' that the counterfeiters are putting an obviously counterfeit coin in the deceptive slabs. At least you can easily tell the coin is counterfeit by the markers. What more do you need to know? Stay away from the counterfeit 1876-CC DDR.
It's easy as pie to identify. Don't buy it regardless of whether its raw or in a slab.

It's ironic that in my item description of the EBAY auction I actually warn people about the existence of a deceptive fake for this variety... and then I get told I'm selling a fake!!!

Placid · April 7, 2008 6:22AM

So is Greg going to send the coin to pcgs so they can reholder it with a new cert # and void out the current one?

TomB · April 7, 2008 6:28AM

<< So is Greg going to send the coin to pcgs so they can reholder it with a new cert # and void out the current one? >>

It is likely that the counterfeiters are obtaining the valid cert numbers off of the Heritage website using the archive feature, which would mean that either the Heritage archive should be altered to obscure the cert numbers or that all coins sold by Heritage should be reholdered after sale. I don't think the latter of those is a particularly attractive alternative.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 6:36AM

So is Greg going to send the coin to pcgs so they can reholder it with a new cert # and void out the current one?

That coin was shipped out via Registered mail this morning about 3 hours before I was advised of this thread.

O.K. folks. It's 3:30 local time and I've got to go out for the afternoon hunt. I'll check back after 8:30 local time. Cheers.

Tyler1924S · April 7, 2008 7:04AM

Your pics highlight one of the more obvious things (aside from the label) I noticed from the not so good images of these fakes on ebay. There is a step down in the ridge on the front of the slab shell (on the fake). Also noted, are the beveled edges of the label viewing window which round off at the corners (real slab). Those edges are sharp and somewhat rough looking on the fake. As far as the label, your pics confirm the "tall" barcode on the fakes.

Bochiman · April 7, 2008 7:55AM

<< Your pics highlight one of the more obvious things (aside from the label) I noticed from the not so good images of these fakes on ebay. There is a step down in the ridge on the front of the slab shell (on the fake). Also noted, are the beveled edges of the label viewing window which round off at the corners (real slab). Those edges are sharp and somewhat rough looking on the fake. As far as the label, your pics confirm the "tall" barcode on the fakes.

>>

You bring up the point I was kind of noticing/wondering about........the fake ones look "snap-on" whereas the real one is sonic sealed and clean.....I am wondering if the fake one can be opened or is it glued? I don't think it is sonically sealed, is it?

direwolf1972 · April 7, 2008 7:59AM

<< 
Real one on the left, fake one on the right

>>

The PCGS slab looks more porous and the fake looks like a slicker surface in the side profile.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 11:40AM

Well now I'm kind of pissed. I just got back in from hunting and checked my EBAY site and the first thing I see is a message from the buyer of my coin in this auction..

HI-I HAD A E-BAY MEMBER BY THE NAME OF dmiller SEND ME E-MAIL TODAY SAYING THIS ITEM IS A FAKE.HE ALSO SAID HE HAS ONE EXACTLY LIKE IT WITH THE SAME REGISTRATION NUMBER.HE ALSO STATES THAT THE PCGS.IS DISCUSSING THIS FAKE AT THEIR MEETINGS.CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON??I PAID A LOT OF MONEY FOR THIS ITEM AND I SURE DONT WANT TO GET INTO A DISPUTE OR CLAIM SITUATION OVER THIS COIN.THANK YOU-MOUSKA94

I don't know EBAY'er 'dmiller' but its the same person who sent me two messages through EBAY asserting first the coin was counterfeit and then saying he may have spoke too soon. I'm assuming that EBAY 'dmiller' is UtahCoin here...but unlike some...I don't want to assume anything I don't know. Now here's the part that kind of has me steamed. While dmiller wrote me to say he may have jumped the gun....he/she apparently hasn't recontacted my buyer to say he/she made a mistake. So now I have a buyer of a $1,000+ coin talking about wanting out of the deal. Am I wrong to be pissed or what?

I'm PMed Utahcoin and strongly suggested he do whatever he has to in order to fix the deal with my buyer.

I have no issue with forum members posting educational posts discussing whether a coin is counterfeit or not...but to go around hinking up some else's deal without knowing what the heck your talking about kind of peeves me.

sparky64 · April 7, 2008 11:52AM

<< Am I wrong to be pissed or what? >>

No you're not wrong IMHO.

TomB · April 7, 2008 11:57AM

I don't blame you for being angry. If I were in your position I would send the buyer the reference to the Heritage auction where this coin was previously sold so that they could see that it is the same specimen in the holder. This coin was sold 11/29/06 in auction 420 as lot 1135. The ability to confirm via images that it is the same coin should put the issue to rest.

greghansen · April 7, 2008 12:07PM

If I were in your position I would send the buyer the reference to the Heritage auction where this coin was previously sold so that they could see that it is the same specimen in the holder

A good idea and I have done that. I just torques me that I have to spend 2-3 hours out of my day, when I'm on vacation to try to respond to an accusation when the accuser spouts off and does all the damage before even contacting me. It's not like I go to great efforts to conceal my identity. I'm greghansen here. I'm greghansen on EBAY. So now I'm scrambling around trying to placate a buyer and the accuser is nowhere to be found and apparently bailed out of discussion without withdrawing his remarks to my buyer. I shouldn't have to be doing this stuff.

Pictures of Fake Slabs (big files)

Comments

Leave a Comment