Trade Dollar Info - Part 1 - Real or Fake
keoj
Posts: 995 ✭✭✭
For those that are interested in the series I'm going to try to post some basic info on the series every couple of days. I'll try to be concise and I'm sure that others might chime in with additional comments and info. The topics will wander but I'll probably discuss some basics as well as some of the rarer varieties and oddities. I'm expecting that TDN and others will jump in if I screw up on data.
First Topic - Real or Fake Trade Dollars
First rule - unless you know the series well, don't buy raw on eBay. A VERY significant number listed at any one time are fake. About a year ago, I crawled through an entire listing and found that over 50% were fake. It varies.....at some points in time it's higher, other points in time the percentage of fakes is lower. It seems that lately, a few more sellers (usually the ones selling from the US) are designating coins as replica but quite a few of the counterfeits are still being passed off as "genuine".
Some of these fakes are very, very good in the series and getting better. There was a case about 2 years ago when a forum member asked for some diagnostics on a rare 1876-CC DDR variety and it took several back and forth discussions to ascertain the coin was a fake. Inspection by pictures (even reasonably high quality pictures) in not adequate to determine a high quality fake.
So, you can buy slabbed coins and that pretty safe. I thought it was very safe until the recent news of counterfeit slabs started to become apparent. (I don't know how to protect against this other than know who you are buying from and making sure that solid return privileges are available......this is scary. Does this mean that all coins must be inspected in hand prior to a sale?)
There are distinct "tells" that I use when looking at Trade Dollars. This was from an old post that I did a long time ago. General diagnostics are great but you have to know the coin date and mintmark characteristics well to use them.
These are the diagnostics that I look for:
- Surface of the coin.....is it cast? Are the denticles clear? Is the rim clear?
- Are the 13 stars the correct shape and do they have correct amount of relief off the surface of the coin.
- Are the numerals correct size and font?
- Are the basics for a year and mintmark correct? Example, a 1871-CC Trade Dollar?
- Is the type I and II obverse and reverse correct for the year: TYpe I obverses from 73 to 76, Type II obverses from 76 to 85, Type I reverse from 73 to 76, Type II reverse from 75 to 86. There are no such varieties as a Type II/I. (For those that don't know, a Type I obverse has the "Liberty" ribbon ends pointing left as you look at the coin, Type II has the ribbon ends pointing down. There are more diagnostics but this is the big one. Type I reverse has a berry in the right claw as you look at the coin, Type II reverses have no berry in the claw).
- Is the mintmark consistent with the year (ie there is no Type II/II 76-CC...there are Type II/II 76 and 76-s's). There are many of these that exist and don't come easy unless you know the series well. Example, for 77 business strikes, generally the stars are weak around Miss Liberties head. Or, 99% of 76 Type I/I's don't have a perod after FINE. The 76-S Type I/II or Type II/II's generally have micro s' (but there are a few large S samples that exist). Another good one for a 1876-CC DDR, the real coin has a very distinct set of doubled feathers
- For a Type I and Type II obverses and reverses, there are certain other die characteristics that one should look for. Such as, the neck feathers on the left side are not contiguous on Type I reverses and they are on Type II's. Or the scroll ends point down on Type II obverses and point left on Type I's. I've seen this be a significant tell on bad coins.
- There are actually two type of Type II Obverses and Reverses (very subtle) titled Type IIM and Type IIL for 77 and 78 dates.
- I look at denticles to make sure they look okay and not over or under exagerated
- If the coin is raw, I'll look at the reeds
- PL business strikes exist but are VERY rare...be careful.
Like I This is just an example of why one should avoid a raw trade dollar on ebay unless you know the series. I'll be posting pictures of the specific coins and diagnostics in the next couple of weeks.
Hope this helps.
keoj
First Topic - Real or Fake Trade Dollars
First rule - unless you know the series well, don't buy raw on eBay. A VERY significant number listed at any one time are fake. About a year ago, I crawled through an entire listing and found that over 50% were fake. It varies.....at some points in time it's higher, other points in time the percentage of fakes is lower. It seems that lately, a few more sellers (usually the ones selling from the US) are designating coins as replica but quite a few of the counterfeits are still being passed off as "genuine".
Some of these fakes are very, very good in the series and getting better. There was a case about 2 years ago when a forum member asked for some diagnostics on a rare 1876-CC DDR variety and it took several back and forth discussions to ascertain the coin was a fake. Inspection by pictures (even reasonably high quality pictures) in not adequate to determine a high quality fake.
So, you can buy slabbed coins and that pretty safe. I thought it was very safe until the recent news of counterfeit slabs started to become apparent. (I don't know how to protect against this other than know who you are buying from and making sure that solid return privileges are available......this is scary. Does this mean that all coins must be inspected in hand prior to a sale?)
There are distinct "tells" that I use when looking at Trade Dollars. This was from an old post that I did a long time ago. General diagnostics are great but you have to know the coin date and mintmark characteristics well to use them.
These are the diagnostics that I look for:
- Surface of the coin.....is it cast? Are the denticles clear? Is the rim clear?
- Are the 13 stars the correct shape and do they have correct amount of relief off the surface of the coin.
- Are the numerals correct size and font?
- Are the basics for a year and mintmark correct? Example, a 1871-CC Trade Dollar?
- Is the type I and II obverse and reverse correct for the year: TYpe I obverses from 73 to 76, Type II obverses from 76 to 85, Type I reverse from 73 to 76, Type II reverse from 75 to 86. There are no such varieties as a Type II/I. (For those that don't know, a Type I obverse has the "Liberty" ribbon ends pointing left as you look at the coin, Type II has the ribbon ends pointing down. There are more diagnostics but this is the big one. Type I reverse has a berry in the right claw as you look at the coin, Type II reverses have no berry in the claw).
- Is the mintmark consistent with the year (ie there is no Type II/II 76-CC...there are Type II/II 76 and 76-s's). There are many of these that exist and don't come easy unless you know the series well. Example, for 77 business strikes, generally the stars are weak around Miss Liberties head. Or, 99% of 76 Type I/I's don't have a perod after FINE. The 76-S Type I/II or Type II/II's generally have micro s' (but there are a few large S samples that exist). Another good one for a 1876-CC DDR, the real coin has a very distinct set of doubled feathers
- For a Type I and Type II obverses and reverses, there are certain other die characteristics that one should look for. Such as, the neck feathers on the left side are not contiguous on Type I reverses and they are on Type II's. Or the scroll ends point down on Type II obverses and point left on Type I's. I've seen this be a significant tell on bad coins.
- There are actually two type of Type II Obverses and Reverses (very subtle) titled Type IIM and Type IIL for 77 and 78 dates.
- I look at denticles to make sure they look okay and not over or under exagerated
- If the coin is raw, I'll look at the reeds
- PL business strikes exist but are VERY rare...be careful.
Like I This is just an example of why one should avoid a raw trade dollar on ebay unless you know the series. I'll be posting pictures of the specific coins and diagnostics in the next couple of weeks.
Hope this helps.
keoj
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Comments
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Thank you for taking the time to keep us all informed, great thread!
edited: I need spell check
I find it interesting that they were made to be sent over to China in the first place!
Joe's the "MAN" when it comes to this series.
I'd advise anyone interested in collecting Trade Dollars to print out his threads for future reference.
Ray
Thank you for the information.
The counterfeiting issues are just a confirmation of my initial decision.
Again, thanks for taking the time to make the post. I would love to see something like this relating to fake Morgans, which I think will be the counterfeiters next major target, since they are burning out Trade Dollars.