Upside-down, right-side up edge lettering

CoinKing · April 18, 2007 12:14AM

Should PCGS designate upside-down/right-side up edge lettering on Presidential Dollars?

commoncents05 · April 18, 2007 12:20AM

No. If it is really a big deal to people, they can just look at the edge in the handy Tri-ViewTM Gasket.

-Paul

Manorcourtman · April 18, 2007 12:20AM

No. It will spark another wave of scam auctions on eBay among other things!!

FredWeinberg · April 18, 2007 12:22AM

Absolutely Not, in my opinion

Julian · April 18, 2007 12:25AM

Not unless you want to designate the lettering on early US half cents, cents, halves and dollars.

RYK · April 18, 2007 12:26AM

<< Not unless you want to designate the lettering on early US half cents, cents, halves and dollars. >>

Now, that's a better idea.

Longacre · April 18, 2007 12:31AM

I've heard about creating a market for coins, but that is taking it a little too far. The newbies will be submitting 2x the number of coins so that they could get each slabbed designations for their coins. I don't think PCGS should get into that. There are lots of other ways to expand your business and generate revenue.

RYK · April 18, 2007 12:33AM

There are lots of other ways to expand your business and generate revenue.

For example...

pharmer · April 18, 2007 12:34AM

Well said. I think you need to be a little more discerning about what you give cred to via PCGS's good name.

messydesk · April 18, 2007 12:36AM

No. It will only play into the hands of people that want to make more of it than it is -- a coin toss. The only edge anomalies worth considering IMHO are

- Missing lettering (coin not fed through lettering device)
- Multiple lettering (coin made more than one trip through lettering device)
- Erratic lettering (coin is partially lettered or there is evidence of a misfeed through the lettering device such as abnormal spacing detectable with a cursory glance)

Longacre · April 18, 2007 12:39AM

<< There are lots of other ways to expand your business and generate revenue.

For example...

>>

Create a market for slabs internationally. Hall created the US slab market from scratch, and there is a wide, wide world out there that can be convinced that collecting cannot happen unless a coin is in a PCGS slab. It just takes a little convincing.

ArgentumRex · April 18, 2007 12:43AM

I think it's a legitimate description of legitimate variations of the coin. People seem to have an interest, and I think that there will probably be interest in collecting both types down the road. So, yes.

FLBuffaloHunter · April 18, 2007 12:46AM

Since the mint has recognized the upside down/right side up is a normal variety of the minting process, I think it could be indicated on the inset as a 'type 1' or 'type 2' edge variety. Much like mint mark varieties are labeled.

Coxe · April 18, 2007 12:49AM

Should they? No.
Would they? CU is a corporation traded on public exchanges with a responsibility to increase shareholder value. If the ultimate impact won't likely negate a great quarter return from doing so.......

Preussen · April 18, 2007 12:50AM

<< Should PCGS designate upside-down/right-side up edge lettering on Presidential Dollars? >>

You are kidding, right? -Preussen

RichieURich · April 18, 2007 12:52AM

<< No. It will spark another wave of scam auctions on eBay among other things!! >>

TwoSides2aCoin · April 18, 2007 12:55AM

There is only so much value a company can add, Ron.

The holder offers the viewer an opportunity to make that determination.
Making a label that points it out is like offering a loupe with every order. Let people see it for themselves. Noting it on a label will alienate the company from reasonably minded folks.
Now, it would be a different story if I saw you with your shirt on inside out

I'd shout it out !

Joe

Coxe · April 18, 2007 12:59AM

<< Noting it on a label will alienate the company from reasonably minded folks. >>

That's what many of us thought about grading NCLT and reporting the numbers in the pop reports. Used to not accept late date stuff too. Oh well. The economics of sustaining business is pretty important.

mgoodm3 · April 18, 2007 1:04AM

Maybe the edge lettering isn't upside down. Maybe the obv and rev are switched.....

pharmer · April 18, 2007 5:06AM

I believe my earlier reply may not have been clear enough.

No.

flaminio · April 18, 2007 5:06AM

<< Should PCGS designate upside-down/right-side up edge lettering on Presidential Dollars? >>

Yes. The coins are different. Differences should be designated.

tmot99 · April 18, 2007 5:09AM

Only if you plan to designate which side of the planchet was struck with the obverse die and which side of the planchet was struck with the reverse die.

According to the US Mint, there is no appropriate designation as to upside down and rightside up. Therefore any designation you make in regards to this would be foolish.

notwilight · April 18, 2007 5:19AM

I'd say no since the good name of PCGS would imply that there is a significance to it. I'm sure you're getting requests for it as I'm getting requests from ebay purchasers to provide upside down or right side up coins. I'm glad to do it at no extra charge. If asked, I explain that there is no significance.
--Jerry

wayneherndon · April 18, 2007 5:21AM

My vote: No.

WH

19Lyds · April 18, 2007 6:05AM

I really don't think so Ron as it will perpetuate the misguided idea that the upside down coins are errors when in fact they are not.

airplanenut · April 18, 2007 6:09AM

Ron,

If you designate this, should one designation stand out in the pop reports as scarcer, you'll create a false market playing to fools who don't understand probability. Perhaps coins with one type of lettering are generally nicer quality, based on what side of the coin touches what part of the machine... that could cause an uneven representation of pieces to be sent to PCGS, but has no bearing on the actual "scarcity" of the variety.

So, my vote is absolutely not.

Jeremy

claychaser · April 18, 2007 6:14AM

JoeLewis · April 18, 2007 6:27AM

Designating upside-down lettering vs. right-side-up lettering makes 1000% more sense than designating "first day of release" on the slab!

dthigpen · April 18, 2007 6:28AM

Definitely not, I think we already have enough 'official' variations in this series as it is. Keep future additions to true rarities.

LALASD4 · April 18, 2007 6:28AM

NO

BobGreene · April 18, 2007 6:34AM

Absolutely not!

And while we're at it, designating "first day of issue" makes no sense either. It doesn't mean anything as far as the coin is concerned.

57loaded · April 18, 2007 6:59AM

I say no because it wasn't a concern with the mint on how they were struck. Upside down or rightside up. So, it doesn't make for a type variation, IMHO.

Loaded

BlackBeard · April 18, 2007 7:09AM

Technically, there is no right side up or down since it is randomly applied. Since it is basically 50/50 in terms of orientation, neither should command a premium and this would just legitimize those on ebay trying to capitalize on the unwary. Therefore, I think it would be detrimental to the hobby when someone discovers the coin they have been hyped into paying extra for is very common and may then be discouraged and hesitant to pursue the hobby further. There are already enough pitfalls out there for the beginning collector.

CoinHunter2003 · April 18, 2007 8:26AM

<< No. It will spark another wave of scam auctions on eBay among other things!! >>

FatMan · April 18, 2007 8:40AM

As silly as designating "Upside-down, Right-side up" may sound, it certainly has more numismatic validity than "First Strike". I say a resounding NO to both and hope this question is a joke. Credibility is everything for a TPG.

Cameonut · April 18, 2007 8:43AM

<< As silly as designating "Upside-down, Right-side up" may sound, it certainly has more numismatic validity than "First Strike". I say a resounding NO to both and hope this question is a joke. Credibility is everything for a TPG. >>

Well said FatMan - that is exactly what I was thinking.

RareBronzeCollector · April 18, 2007 8:46AM

NO! NO!! NO!!! NO!!!! NO!!!!!

NO!!!!!! NO!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!

quattrocoins · April 18, 2007 9:01AM

<< Should PCGS designate upside-down/right-side up edge lettering on Presidential Dollars? >>

Which is the "upside" and which is the "right-side"?

clackamas · April 18, 2007 9:02AM

no

Stooge · April 18, 2007 9:24AM

YES!

Just to be different.

Later, Paul.

Russ · April 18, 2007 9:37AM

I think he's yanking your chains.

Russ, NCNE

ColonialCoinUnion · April 18, 2007 9:40AM

<< Not unless you want to designate the lettering on early US half cents, cents, halves and dollars. >>

I think Julian had it right (as usual).

pharmer · April 18, 2007 10:09AM

He's also posted the question on the Q&A forum today. So if he's joking, he's taking it to extremes.

Baley · April 18, 2007 10:17AM

Yes, difficult to authenticate varieties should be desginated. How will I know if my dollar has down- or up- lettering unless someone else tells me?

basestealer · April 18, 2007 10:19AM

UPSIDE DOWN EDGE LETTERING ERROR *RARE*

THIS IS THE ERROR EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT ON TELEVISION FOR SALE ON THE COIN SHOW FOR OVER $1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ~ERROR~RARE~!!!

THIS IS THE BIGGEST MINT GOOF UP EVER!!!!! ONLY A VERY FEW OF THESE ESCAPED!!!! THEY CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN CLEARWATER, FLORIDA, REPORTS OF ERRORS FOUND! I OPENED ONE ROLL OF THESE AND FOUND 13 OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! SUPER DUPER RARE!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM AUCTIONING THE 13 I FOUND FOR ONLY SUPER CHEAP $500 BUY IT NOW!!!!!! GET THESE BEFORE THE SUPPLY DRIES UP THESE ARE ULTRA RARE PROOFS FROM AN ORIGINAL ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!! MADE OF REAL GOLD!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS DO NOT BE DECEIVED WITH SO CALLED ERRORS UPSIDE DOWN EDGE LETTERING IS WHAT MAKES THE NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SURE TO GO UP 100 TIMES YOUR INVESTMENT IN JUST WEEKS BUY THEM NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! THINK RETIREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--taken from various upside down edge lettering ebay auctions

Russ · April 18, 2007 10:21AM

<< << if these coins are not errors how will the be listed on holders when certified >>

As regular, normal Presidential Dollars. >>

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=576639

Russ, NCNE

farthing · April 18, 2007 10:44AM

Ron, does PCGS include the edge lettering orientation for Belgium coins (Pos A/B)? I believe that the answer on this question for Presidential dollars should be the same answer.

wondercoin · April 18, 2007 10:52AM

Ron: Why not designate them Ty 1 and Ty 2? They are obviously each different from each other - right? Let's consider this:

1. Numerous collectors are already asking for this;

2. PCGS may increase its revenues sharply by creating a Ty 1 and Ty 2 designation and collectors seeking each one in PCGS holders;

3. It is unknown if the split is actually 50-50 or 75-25 or 90-10 - right? One may prove much more difficult to locate in higher grades -double the fun.

4. If the Sac Dollar this year came out with coins with the date right side up and others with the date upside down, why wouldn't collectors want an example of each? Any different with GW $1's?

5. It might assist in stopping the abuses of sellers hyping one sort or the other as an ultra rarity.

More popular varieties recognized on holders = more grading revenues = more happy shareholders (and possibly more happy collectors and dealers) = President of Grading Company doing his job really well.

Wondercoin

P.S. As you know, I have not ever asked you about this and really don't care greatly one way or the other - but, why not?

Coxe · April 18, 2007 6:11PM

If it is done, the Type 1 and Type 2 designations are probably better than deciding which way is up. Should be coordinated with NGC so everyone who matters is using the same definition. Can just imagine the enthusiastic response from the guys who have to grade mountains of these daily when they need to start designating this. Should also make for quite a number of tag errors, which naturally will be promoted to death on eBay.

morgansforever · April 18, 2007 7:48PM

The Mint has already stated that the lettering is random.

There are plenty of fools who will buy them though.

Is this a joke?

It's gotta be.

wondercoin · April 19, 2007 5:04AM

Upon reflection, Ty 1 and Ty 2 is probably not adviseable nomenclature at this point, as it is possible a more significant variety could be discovered for this coin. So, perhaps Ty A lettering (up) and Ty B lettering (down) is better language at this point?

Wondercoin

Upside-down, right-side up edge lettering

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