Why the dealers love this hobby, why I often hate it
shylock
Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
A major uprade of a major IH variety that's now asking 15K. It sold for less than $800 as an ANACS MS63 in a Heritage auction. Pretty coin, but do you think it's original? I always felt ANACS net graded this in a silent manner.
Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
0
Comments
Can you turn on your PM?
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Furthermore, whether it gets resold to a dealer or collector, BOTH have an equal chance at finding out where it came from. That's the beauty of the Internet - it levels the playing field.
<< <i>How do you know the ANACS coin and the NGC coin are the same coin, the field mark off from the forehead? Other info? If the same coin for certain, what do you think was done to make it appear better? Are you saying that NGC gave too high a grade? >>
Just FYI... when shylock says photos are of the same coin, you can take it to the bank. He's amazing.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Well said -- I just leveled the playing field for those who have a hard time navigating Heritage's archives.
HI PAUL!! Long time no see!!!! Hope all is well!
So the question I have is, "Was ANACS correct in grading it MS63 to begin with?". Perhaps NGC got it right and ANACS blew it.
<< <i>So the question I have is, "Was ANACS correct in grading it MS63 to begin with?". Perhaps NGC got it right and ANACS blew it. >>
A question which pretty much exposes the fraud that is TPG. As both are "expert" opinions of the same coin, is it a $900 coin or a $15,000 coin? As we have all been led to believe, TPG companies use three graders and then a supervisor before a coin is assigned a final grade. So four graders from ANACS gave an opinion, and four graders from NGC gave a completely different opinion. A $14,100 difference in opinion.
My experience is ANACS will often "silently" net grade coins they feel are very attractive but have strong reservations about their authenticity. Rather than net grade them they downgrade them by 2 points, give or take. I really feel this is one of those coins and NGC missed the boat.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>So the question I have is, "Was ANACS correct in grading it MS63 to begin with?". Perhaps NGC got it right and ANACS blew it.
My experience is ANACS will often "silently" net grade coins they feel are very attractive but have strong reservations about their authenticity. Rather than net grade them they downgrade them by 2 points, give or take. I really feel this is one of those coins and NGC missed the boat. >>
I have felt this way many times when submitting Busties. Personally, I would rather not have the net grade listed on the slab, just keep it quiet.
Good to see you Tom. Yes, it was stripped & retoned in a very attractive manner. But it's a very rare to find this tough RPD in such good condition, making it's value higher than the Heritage price. I think 2-3K would be reasonable.
The value of the coin should not be so dependent on the holder. It is bad for the hobby if consumers care more about the label than the coin. It is good for dealers who know enough about the coin and the certification business that they can exploit that discrepancy.
Shylock should have recieved more for the coin. NGC should have body bagged it. ANACS should have net graded it on the label. The current price should be lower. I really sympathize with Shylock on this one.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
WH
<< <i>My experience is ANACS will often "silently" net grade coins they feel are very attractive but have strong reservations about their authenticity. >>
From my own submitting experience, I can tell you that PCGS and NGC sometimes do the same thing.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>What a great eye you have Shylock! When it comes to tracking IHCs you are the tops and I really admire your memory and ability to find these things. I am always amazed when you post the fruits of your ability and I wish I could see it happen more often. >>
Let's put it this way. If you consider yourself a specialist in a particular series and DO NOT notice specific coins moving between dealers and auctions, then may I humbly suggest you need to be spending more time looking at auctions and dealer inventories.
That said, this is certainly a nice piece of investigation from Shylock.
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
and so bad when a dealer does it?
<< <i>Another reason I like to buy coins in ANACS holders. Most people buy the grade on the holder and almost ignore the coin. Its all just a game with the winners ending up with the best coins, regardless of the holder. >>
Dave,
Shhhhhh!
Perhaps Rick is the only one who could find someone willing to pay $15,000 for the coin.Would you like to know what I would pay for the coin?I'll tell you it would be less than it sold for in the Heritage auction !
Stewart
I find it very interesting to see posts where people identify coins that have been dipped, worked on or even had nothing done and have gotten into new plastic resulting in a huge jump in price. I've seen a few like that from Tradedollarnut and Sunnywood and a few others but have seen many more by Shylock. I encourage all specialists to post any examples they may find.
Stewart - that's why you're sitting on so many great coins. But if your monthly budget necessitated making a quick buck you'd have bought this coin at auction without thinking twice. No where in this thread did I knock Rick for his asking price. My problem is with NGC. My personal experience is they're much tougher on copper/copper-nickel these days. Seeing this one upgrade to 65 blew my mind.
I find it very interesting to see posts where people identify coins that have been dipped, worked on or even had nothing done and have gotten into new plastic resulting in a huge jump in price. I've seen a few like that from Tradedollarnut and Sunnywood and a few others but have seen many more by Shylock. I encourage all specialists to post any examples they may find.
Carl - thanks for the very kind words and I agree with you that real life situations are the best education this forum has to offer.
Let me clarify 2 points. I originally bought this coin from Rick in the ANACS slab, at a very healthy markup, right after he bought it in the Heritage auction. I knew his cost and still loved the coin -- I thought he ripped it big time at that sale. A year later I sold it on EBay for a few hundreds dollars less than he sold it to me. About right for EBay.
BWRC - Having read my above post, how much of a premium (over his Heritage bid price) did Rick pay for this in its new NGC65 slab? And since he showed it to you, what did you and he think of its originality?
Rick wanted me to let everyone know that he would like to respond to this post but isn't currently able to. He is in a Tucson Hospital with 2nd and 3rd degree burns from a grease fire that got out of control in his home while he was cooking something. He will miss the Long Beach show. My prayers are with him for a full and speedy recovery.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Shylock,
Your question was:
BWRC - Having read my above post, how much of a premium (over his Heritage bid price) did Rick pay for this in its new NGC65 slab? And since he showed it to you, what did you and he think of its originality?
Many times I will come up to Rick's table and he will say "Hey look what I just bought" and hand me a coin to look at. I looked at this S1 in the holder for just a few seconds glance and thought it was nice and flashy but didn't spend any time studying the coin. Nothing was mentioned to me about the price he had just paid and neither did I ask him. I just remember seeing the coin and the NGC holder it was in.
Hi Shylock,
Copper-nickel IHCs getting dipped. Some things never change. Sometimes they look really nice at least for a while, yet other times they come out looking like crap. I remember that atrocity you posted a couple of years ago in a PCGS MS65 holder. Recall that one in the Georgia dealer's inventory?
Personally, I can't tell for sure from looking at the image that this one was dipped. Obviously the toning is uneven. Is there a luster break at the color change?
Hope Rick is feeling well.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
and so bad when a dealer does it?
The larger dealers have more of the ear of the grading service than most any collector and most other dealers. Coins like this are often created at the highest level of dealer. Then they get to work their way down to the collector. Welcome to TPG 101.
roadrunner
As a practical matter, though, if I see a 'coffin,' I won't buy it. It may get passed around at the wholesale level until a buyer of expensive pieces of plastic can be located.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."