The truth about crossovers, tight grading,

homerunhall · March 4, 2003 1:32PM

dealers who complain, dealers who don't, dealers who can really grade, dealers who can't...

Part 1...Crossovers

Friends...Let's start with crossovers. Here's a true story...

At the Long Beach show I went thru a major dealer's inventory of NGC and ANACS coins . I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.) I took them into the grading room and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH. This showed me that...

1. If you pick out the "right" coins, you can get a decent percentage to cross.
2. My eyes hadn't gone yet.

Interestingly, I did the same thing at the FUN show...different dealer...same amount of coins...about the same crossover rate.

The truth about crossovers is...

1. PCGS wants as many great coins in there holders as possible. It's to our advantage to have every coin that meets our standards in our holder. There is no business reason to not cross coins. It only pisses people off and leaves good coins in the other guy's holders. We don't want this. We want the good coins in our holders and the mistakes in their holders.

2. The crossover game has been going on for over 10 years. That means every month we take 1000 or so nice coins out of the other guys' holders. I believe we have crossed several hundred thousand coins. Think about it. What's left in their holders. Think about the dealer whose coins I looked thru at Long Beach. We took the 30 nicest coins. What's going to be his crossover percentage on the next batch he sends.

3. Many dealers aren't that good at grading. The 60 to 70, 11 point high end of the grading scale is really splitting hairs. Many dealers aren't very good at doing it. Their opinion of their coins is very biased and often incorrect. If they say we aren't crossing enough coins, their opinion is biased and not necessarily correct.

4. Dealers cross coins to make money. Many coins are worth more in PCGS holders. Dealers have a vested interest in getting us to be looser on crossovers. We have a vested interest in grading all coins...regular submissions and crossovers...in accordance with the PCGS standards. These two interests are sometimes at cross purposes.

5. Other grading services have a business reason to grade looser than PCGS. Think about it. Coins are worth more in PCGS holders. If another grading service graded exactly the same as PCGS there would be little reason to submitt coins to them. So the other services grade a little looser and they get submissions. That doesn't mean we should change our standards. That doesn't mean we should cross more coins. We can't cross coins that don't meet our standards and the other services are purposely grading looser than PCGS. Every dealer with an eye...the ones that will tell you the truth that is...knows that PCGS coins are graded a little more conservatively. Any dealer who tells you the coins are the same is probably lying to you about other things as well.

CLASSICS · March 4, 2003 1:36PM

thank you for the post.

RegistryCoin · March 4, 2003 1:36PM

Well stated. I particularly like both item #2s.

DesertLizard · March 4, 2003 1:37PM

Dealers cross coins to make money

Holy spaghetti! David, tell me this ain't so! I have had many a dealer say it ain't so!

In case some missed it I am being sarcastic. David Hall, has succinctly put this baby to rest I feel.

Russ · March 4, 2003 1:37PM

<< "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." >>

I know what I would do as a grader if the head honcho told me he'd personally picked out 50 coins for crossover.

Russ, NCNE

ursabear · March 4, 2003 1:37PM

Thank you for the candid and concise response.

marcmoish · March 4, 2003 1:40PM

Candid & Concise ...I AGREE!!!

Oh Russ cut it out

Marc

homerunhall · March 4, 2003 1:42PM

Russ...Actually the graders often make it a point to ignore me...kind of proves their independence, and they know I'm very sensitive to the "no one person can arbitrarily determine grades" issue.

David

Russ · March 4, 2003 1:46PM

Homerun,

I think a much better test would have been if you picked out the 50 coins, handed them to the dealer and had him/her submit them for cross without the grading staff knowing that you were involved at all. As hard as an employee may try to do otherwise, it is beyond mosts ability to simply set aside the fact that the coins were selected by one of your stature.

Even if only at the subconcious level, this had to have affected the results.

Russ, NCNE

itsnotjustme · March 4, 2003 1:47PM

There wasn't much flame showing. Did I miss the flame? Where's the flame?

RYK · March 4, 2003 1:49PM

David,

Excellent response.

What is your response to reports of dealers/collectors cracking coins out of PCGS holders to try for an upgrade and getting either a downgrade, or worse, bodybagged. There seems to be a lot of anecdotal stories of these instances on these message boards.

gsaguy · March 4, 2003 1:50PM

<>

That's exactly what I wanted YOU to do with my California Commem in NGC MS68......but you didn't take the hint.

GSAGUY

FrattLaw · March 4, 2003 1:53PM

How much does the "David Hall Handed My Coins to a Grader" service level cost? I'd pay extra for that!

Michael

JJacks · March 4, 2003 1:56PM

David,

Thanks alot for your response. That is exactly the type of response I was hoping for from you. You said alot of the sort of things I have been saying and/or implying in some of my posts, but of course, you have a better Insider view of PCGS then I ever could.

Hopefully, you will be able to be at the table at future Long Beach shows so I can show you some of my best stuff.

JJacks

clw54 · March 4, 2003 1:58PM

This is getting good.

crito · March 4, 2003 2:00PM

If they say we aren't crossing enough coins, their opinion is biased and not necessarily correct.

I understand this 100%, submitters have their own personal biases. What I don't understand is how you get graders to leave THEIR personal biases at the door every morning? Maybe that's why cracked out PCGS coins come back different grades too, sometimes. Unless the "PCGS standard" really does change every 6 months (just kiddin')

I haven't tried a crossover yet, due in large part to what I've read here (gasp). Seems most who have tried agree cracking out yields better results. I'd rather avoid bias than argue whether it exists or not

FrattLaw · March 4, 2003 2:01PM

Where's the -- lips kissing a** -- emotion icon on this system?

Michael

Coinosaurus · March 4, 2003 2:02PM

It's a nice story, but what we really want to see is the power point slide showing historical crossover rates. HRH (is that Home Run Hall or His Royal Highness, hmmmmm) would probably maintain that such data is meaningless because they can't control what the other guys are doing. I'd still like to see it anyway, not to mention the same view from the other side.

cosmicdebris · March 4, 2003 2:02PM

Dave I would have to agree with Russ. Let someone else hand the coins to the graders.

Spooly · March 4, 2003 2:04PM

How much does the "David Hall Handed My Coins to a Grader" service level cost? I'd pay extra for that!

Me too!

Russ has a good point!

Pushkin · March 4, 2003 2:09PM

<< How much does the "David Hall Handed My Coins to a Grader" service level cost? I'd pay extra for that! >>

Probably costs a lot more than the following service:

<< Submission of a coin to either grading service is more than filling out a form and sending it in. We know how to walk submission thorough both services to present and maximize the grade for your coins. >>

Legend Numismatics - Numismatic Services Web Page

Android · March 4, 2003 2:12PM

David,

Thank you for your responses. They were very forthcoming. I understand and agree with your stated premise(s). However, how can there be such a large and resounding howl from the dealer and collector community who beg to differ with your evaluation? I don't mean just here on the forum. Just about every dealer I talked with at the FUN show spoke of the crossover issue. The weren't just dissapointed, they were ANGRY. Many of the dealers that I frequent here in the upper midwest are telling me the same thing. They have been submitting to PCGS for YEARS. I simply can't understand how they ALL could be wrong.

What's a poor collector to do??

Andy

Legend · March 4, 2003 2:17PM

I sincerely appreciate Davids response. I have heard what he has said before. HOWEVER I strongly dispute:

"At the Long Beach show I went thru a major dealer's inventory of NGC and ANACS coins. I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.) I took them into the grading room and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH. This showed me that..." So one dealer got lucky to have have you stop by.

"1. PCGS wants as many great coins in there holders as possible. It's to our advantage to have every coin that meets our standards in our holder. There is no business reason to not cross coins. It only pisses people off and leaves good coins in the other guy's holders. We don't want this. We want the good coins in our holders and the mistakes in their holders."

If this is true, how come few other dealers and COLLECTORS I spoke to got NO crossovers at LB? I know that I nor the balance of the people out there are that incompetent!

David, all I want PCGS to do is admit that maybe, just maybe you guys are tight on crossovers. The PUBLISHED % in the PCGS NEWSLETTER was 27%. I can't see it being more than 10-15% after this month.

How come when I need things crossed I have to always crack them out to get them to work? (which I did last LB w/7 20C pieces-just one example).

Look, I want PCGS to have strong standards. I'm not sticking up for the dealers who want "gimme grades". I want PCGS to be reliable and consistant. I will challange the "crackout " issue forever. You just can't tell me that 73% (possibly more) of NGC coins are overgraded. Like I have said in the past, NGC grades, while PCGS cherry picks the coins based more upon its tastes than standards. I have had times when they say to me, well the color is a little darker than what we like! WELL CRAPOLA! What the heck does color have to do with the grade? Either the coin IS the grade or it is not.

Pushkin · March 4, 2003 2:19PM

<< I simply can't understand how they ALL could be wrong. >>

A lot of people complaining may mean something is wrong, it may also just mean that a lot of people are complaining.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · March 4, 2003 2:19PM

David

Thank you for verbally insulting myself and every other serious collector and dealer on the bourse floor at Long Beach.Congratulations because YOU can grade better than ALL the collectors and dealers on the floor at Long Beach.I have NEVER heard of anyone going thirty for fifty on crossovers.Your average is more than twice the average of the reported crossover rate.

Let's talk about tight grading.I hope everyone knows what is a liner coin.A liner coin could be an ms 65.85.Real close to 66.For the past seven years attractive liner coins already in PCGS holders would upgrade.Now it appears a coin must be a 66.25 to upgrade to 66.I believe this to be true with crossovers.

I know this is a sensitive issue.I know you want to uphold the standards of PCGS.But darn,your graders are grading tighter than a crabs as_.Have you ever seen a crab's as_ ? Could the graders loosen up a hair ?

Stewart

tradedollarnut · March 4, 2003 2:20PM

"I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do."

Objection! Leading the grader, your honor!

DesertLizard · March 4, 2003 2:23PM

your graders are grading tighter than a crabs as_.Have you ever seen a crab's as_ ? Could the graders loosen up a hair ?

Stewart tell us how you really feel!

Pushkin · March 4, 2003 2:30PM

<< Have you ever seen a crab's as_ ? >>

To be honest, no, I've never had any desire to see one, never looked - guess I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy.

JML · March 4, 2003 2:30PM

This is not about loosening up. It is about consistancy.

None of the services are consistant and for that matter there are probably no other humans that are consistant either. Grading is an opinion. Take it as that.

Numismatics is not a financial tool. It is a hobby.

For the record, David, what about the Compugrade system and the computer aided program that you had years ago? Wouldn't that make it more consistant, if the computer could tell if the coin had been graded before?

EVillageProwler · March 4, 2003 2:32PM

HRH,

You really shouldn't have given the 50-odd coins to your graders yourself. That really skewed the results. Since Laura is one of the most vociferous posters here, why not take 50 of her coins that you think are crossover candidates, let her write down the serial #'s, you sign it, and then hand the list to a neutral party.

Then, she'll find another random person or persons to submit the coins normally, and then we'll compare the results.

This way, the graders don't know which coins they are, and we have a list to verify the coins that you picked out.

EVP

gmarguli · March 4, 2003 2:37PM

You just can't tell me that 73% (possibly more) of NGC coins are overgraded.

I just liked this sentence so much that I thought I would bold it.

David, why are there SO MANY instances of coins no crossing, but when they are cracked and submitted raw, they grade the same? I know I have personally had coins fail to cross, yet when sent in raw they graded the same of <gasp> higher.

tradedollarnut · March 4, 2003 2:39PM

Since Laura is one of the most vociferous posters here, why not take 50 of her coins that you think are crossover candidates, let her write down the serial #'s, you sign it, and then hand the list to a neutral party.

Sounds like a very interesting test. I wonder what the results would be - it might be FUN to find out.

Legend · March 4, 2003 2:43PM

I personally would prefer he let 40 or so different dealers submit TWO coins at the next major show. Then lets see what happens.

Anything but random and mixed submissions (number of coins) won't be an honest %. Just my opinion.

shylock · March 4, 2003 2:46PM

We appreciate the response, but I think you only hit a double here. You could stretch it into a triple if you also looked at dealers PCGS coins and pulled those you feel would never cross these days if they said NGC on the label. You'd hit one out of the park if you admitted that maybe some of our lousy grading standards were actually established by previous PCGS grades. Thats where I get confused in the series I feel I know somewhat. I look at many of yours, then I look at the rejected cross, and wonder if the umpire has gone blind.

Legend · March 4, 2003 2:57PM

I totally disagree with the issues of crossovers and what was said here and on other pages. I challange any member of the PCGS grading staff to a PUBLIC debate at a major show about these issues. I will not debate on these forums. I have too much info to extend.

crito · March 4, 2003 2:57PM

Objection! Leading the grader, your honor!

stop badgering the witness and get to the point

You guys don't really think you're going to put DH on trial on his own message board, do you? Should try playing dumb sometime, at least until they spill the beans

And if all those NGC crossovers were colorful toned coins, 70%+ overgraded is probably a conservative estimate, in my opinion (not that anyone asked for it)

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 3:03PM

"I've (cherry) picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory.

To me there is something very wrong with this way of thinking. Collectors cherrypick coins for their collections. But for PCGS to cherrypick NGC coins and then turns around and says We want the good coins in our holders and the mistakes in their holders.

This kind of thinking is the very reason for the inconsistency with grading. Many here have expressed with clarity that all they want is consistant grading but all we have to do is look at the coins in your holders, NGC, ANACS and ICG' at coin shows and on Heritage's, Teletrade's, David Lawrence's and other websites and the question that apparently comes up more often then any other is, how did that coin get it's grade?

So here's some advice for what it's worth. No coin should be graded higher than a MS64 that sports less then a full strike. Remove the misnomers out of the grades MS65 and higher. No coin should be graded
higher then a MS64 when that coin has a distracting mark in one of its main focal areas.

In another thread I expressed that sellers and buyers need to base their prices on more then one opinion. This is most likely laughable to you and PCGS stockholders, perhaps it's impossible but all grading companies need to form an alliance with each other to straighten out the grading standards to bring consistency to all parties so everyone's coins can have a respectable chance at selling and trading on a more level (playing field) market based on the coin's own merits. Because of this great inconsistency in grading among most if not all grading companies rings out a distrust with the majority of the public who would be collectors. But instead we have the constant bickering and backstabing antics between the companies that sends the message that collecting coins is a risky investment. The idea we all need to focus on is to bring many more collectors into the hobby to strenghten the value of our coins and not to make it such an impossible endeaver to have their coins respectably and consistently graded.

Leo

relayer · March 4, 2003 3:43PM

<< "..See what you can do." and nothing more >>

Wink,wink. Nod, nod. 'nuff said.

But on the point of "tight grading" you recently said in the Q/A Form that .5-1% of modern proofs should be 70 and that the graders were instructed to give the grades to the coins that deserve it.

So why wasn't that the policy for all of the years prior?

IrishMike · March 4, 2003 5:13PM

Now that is funny, seriously I almost fell out of my chair. The boss comes into my office and says see what you can do. No one is more independent than me David, but I am sure going to try to please him, especially having seen some of the departures at other CLCT companies. You must really think we are not only bad graders but pretty stupid too.

Why didn't you throw some of the less qualified coins in there too and see how many of those would cross?

All of you that have been bashing crack out artists, where are you now. Sounds to me like Mr Hall is one, come on lets here the same crap leveled at him that you have been slinging around at other dealers. He just admitted his companies spent over a million bucks on coins and that he personally sent some of them in for crossovers and regrades. Did he max out the value of the coin like you claim all the bad dealers do? Isn't Mr Hall a dealer and deserving of the same damning cristicism you are tossing around. Well I am waiting?

Dog97 · March 4, 2003 5:39PM

Every time we get ready to get him he makes a few posts on the board and we decide not to get him.

dorkkarl · March 4, 2003 8:37PM

sentiments echoed. hrh submitting coins to his own graders - it's like the ceo of my company handing me a project & asking me to prioritize it w/ my other projects. which 1 do you think will end up #1?

K S

MadMonk · March 4, 2003 9:48PM

My crossover record is over 90%, so David Hall is right in one respect. I pick out nice coins to send. and they cross or upgrade. But that doesnt address the junk in PCGS holders.

smprfi · March 4, 2003 10:01PM

<< Homerun,

I think a much better test would have been if you picked out the 50 coins, handed them to the dealer and had him/her submit them for cross without the grading staff knowing that you were involved at all. As hard as an employee may try to do otherwise, it is beyond mosts ability to simply set aside the fact that the coins were selected by one of your stature.

Even if only at the subconcious level, this had to have affected the results.

Russ, NCNE >>

I have to disagree Russ.A person with morals will always do the right thing,even if it is there boss is trying to influence them.

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 10:16PM

Not a MS66!
The hit on the jaw by ear, grades MS64 at best.

Leo

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 10:22PM

Not a MS65!
Check out the fit on cheek and the scattered carbon spots. Grades at best MS64.

Leo

cointagious · March 4, 2003 10:31PM

so many questions.
you mean hrh can't grade well enuff to get more than a 60% cross-over rate on a cherry picking mission?
i stopped submitting to you folks a while back but when i did, my cross rate was about 40% but my crack-it-out to submit rate was 90%+ for same grade or better...go figure.
yeah, what about the pcgs coins that get cracked and are then bb'ed or downgraded. where's the consistancy at pcgs that ngc gives us?

hrh, if your even suggesting that your crossing experience is somehow meaningful to the rest of us and our experiences then you are sadly mistaken.

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 10:32PM

At least it's not in a MS65 holder!
Very weak strike! A misnomer of a coin in a PCGS holder.

Leo

eagle7 · March 4, 2003 10:33PM

It cost me a lot of money learning how to grade. I butted my head against the wall for a while, then I bought books on grading, I watched ANA videos, I sent to PCGS lots of coins and noticed what grade they gave them. Now I dont have any problem getting coins to cross or to make raw grades. Im at ninety percent or over. Of course that means there are lots of coins in NGC and ANACS holders that I dont send to PCGS, I just resell them. The absolute worst coins in NGC holders are the ones from sn 200000 up to about 1300000(without the dash numbers). In ANACS the ones hardest to cross are the ones from about 100000 to 350000. I have had numerous upgrades with gold saints in the earliest ANACS holders, the ones with the letter in front. NGC saints will cross if you grade them yourself first. People need to learn how to grade! AMEN.

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 10:43PM

What are those marks on the cheek?
Yikes! Also looks like a ding on the steps. Nice strike though.

Eagle7
Interesting info on the numbers.

Leo

ksteelheader · March 4, 2003 10:46PM

" You really shouldn't have given the 50-odd coins to your graders yourself. That really skewed the results. Since Laura is one of the most vociferous posters here, why not take 50 of her coins that you think are crossover candidates, let her write down the serial #'s, you sign it, and then hand the list to a neutral party.

Then, she'll find another random person or persons to submit the coins normally, and then we'll compare the results.

This way, the graders don't know which coins they are, and we have a list to verify the coins that you picked out. "

EVP

After reading the whole thread up to this point 2 times, here is the best idea that I heard. Why don't we do this???
.
....................................................

leothelyon · March 4, 2003 10:51PM

Flat cheek!
At first glance compared to the others so far it looks undergraded but the jawline to ear is flat. Should it
been graded.....by PCGS?

Leo

The truth about crossovers, tight grading,

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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