If one discovered a new die marriage for a Trade Dollar how would you go out and prove it ? 2/22/14
Realone
Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
Most of the time when Trade Dollar collectors think they found a new die marriage they get a schooling from their peers that what they really found was a cheap Chinese counterfeit because the Chinese typically aren't familiar with the known obverses and reverses that were minted. So if you believe that you discovered a genuine unknown die marriage what steps would you perform to prove it. And let me also add that PCGS and NGC has been known to holder the same counterfeit Trades on occasion, ie typically getting the subject Trade iton a genuine holder may not be fool proof all the time. What say you?
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Don't expect finding a new die marriage to make a big splash unless it's a major variety. I have found more than a dozen in recent months and I am sure Keoj and Co. have found a plethora more during their research.
Good question.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Link to the closed eBay auction and get others opinion.
and Crypto...there is no link in your post..
Cheers, RickO
<< <i>I agree pictures are necessary, but even better, send them to keoj......
and Crypto...there is no link in your post..
Cheers, RickO >>
The results have cycled out of the completed sales history and I have no way to find it as I only keep links to stuff I think is important, If I kept a link to every fake Trade dollar my computer would fill up quickly. That said it would be saved on his purchase history, It should be noted that there was only a very limited production and emission of 76cc trade dollars and Carson city in general reused many if not most of their dies. I can not think of a unique die pair where both dies were only used for that mating, I am sure there might be one but 73,76 and 78 would be the least likely of years. Even the rarest of the confirmed 76 CC Rev dies is known used on a 75cc.
<< <i>It would seem to be pretty straightforward to simply show the images. >>
Perhaps therein lies the solution to such a conundrum. .
<< <i>
<< <i>If you can show the dies (either obv or rev) being used on another die pair it helps. If you are referring to the 76cc type 1/1 you bought off eBay a while ago I am 99% sure it is a counterfeit. It matches a group of counterfits of CC coins that came out in the early 2000s that were well made but shared a rev die that was found on 77cc type 1/1. The other type 1/1 76cc you bought raw with the slanted CC is real.
Link to the closed eBay auction and get others opinion. >>
Just out of curiosity do you have a photo of that counterfeit 1877-cc I/I handy? >>
No I didn't take notes back then around 2007-8
I was looking for just a normal 76cc type 1/1 back then and ebay had a flood of high AU CC coins either RAW or self slabbed most with decent rims and luster. Joe and I never got the guts to buy one but followed them and saw patterns with the ebay sellers and their alts. There were quite a few of the same 76cc (about 12) that came through and a few other dates to include the mentioned 77cc. This was an especially active high end fake period on Ebay that included silver version of correct weight 76cc DDRs and many others. My notes back then aren't what they are today but the same period came the only fake that blatantly fooled me which was a 73s that is owned by Tennesseedave. Another 76cc would be exciting as so few die pairs are known but like the 78cc, they do not get the benefit of the doubt and need to be proven real instead of assumed.
This is what it would take IMO
Exact (tripled Checked) Reed Count (then compared to the collars used that year)
Exact weight
Extensive die comparisons: The Obv die would almost assuredly have to be shared by one of the other 76cc known coins or the Rev on a 75cc maybe even a 74cc.
If it passed a panel/group of experts but no die linkage was found a metallurgical test by one of the TPG at cost.
My opinion aside, Occam's razor would suggest that it is a recycled fake from a few years ago coming back onto the market. Even the TPG can not be expected to vet these as they don't go down into die pairs while grading and a few make it into holders. Many of the One off "die pairs" found during the writing of Joe's book (most in graded holders) have proven to be fake upon closer scrutiny. Post the link, Stealer is a monster at sorting these out. Much better than even me or Dan, let him do some of the heavy lifting for old eyes.
Reused wide CC that started in 73
and a left over 75cc die
Find a known real coin that shares one of the dies on your coin and most of the conformation work is done.
<< <i>Find a known real coin that shares one of the dies on your coin and most of the conformation work is done. >>
Generally that's good advice. However, a genuine die used for another year doesn't necessarily correlate to the validity of the coin in question. The really good 78CC counterfeit shares a (T2) reverse with genuine 76CC's.
I believe the guys ATS perform metallurgical analysis for a reasonable 75 bucks.
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=1591
I like that you're taking extra special effort to analyze your coin. Many would not be so strident in believing their own coin was fake. It would be a real benefit to the TD community if your coin turned out to a "new discovery" piece.
However this plays out -- good luck with it.
Regards,
EVP
PS Please continue to be patient while this is being played out. Certifying a "new discovery" piece is a long road.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Here is the item#: 141080080243 >>
That is not a valid cert
I believe that is the e-bay item number.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1876-CC-Carson-City-Trade-Silver-Dollar-ABOUT-UNCir-US-Coin-LOOK-RARE-/141080080243?ru=http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=141080080243&_rdc=1&nma=true&si=lOoE1Y3nP7jjHr7rKczt6tw4TVo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
here are a couple shorter urls you can use vis-a-vis ebay.
ebay.com/itm/item number
ebay.com/usr/username aka id
you never have to worry about a link if you do that. i'm striving to get into the habit of using them again.
.
<< <i>new die marriage and since the obv matched a known die and the rev also >>
That is a theory, not a fact. Slow down Alan
Best pictures I could pull from there. Goodmans photos will Help. I will help with applying scientific theory to helping prove one way or the other but I have to say it screams fake and normally I wouldn't devote this much time to that coin. Mind you this is coming from a guy who thinks it would be cool (if not semi-inconsequential) if it did pan out, I just don't have much if any faith.
<< <i>My only question is who hates money enough to buy that coin off ebay with those pics?
The following "description" in the auction would have concerned me.
I am not a professional coin grader, please look at the pictures carefully and make your own judgment of the coins condition!
<< <i>
<< <i>My only question is who hates money enough to buy that coin off ebay with those pics?
The following "description" in the auction would have concerned me.
I am not a professional coin grader, please look at the pictures carefully and make your own judgment of the coins condition! >>
besides an unknown die pair of my 2nd fav date, the denticals and rims are not consistently struck up. They are soft in spots (like 6 oclock Rev) and worn into the rim on others (10 on Obv). This is not consistent with a coin that has borderline UNC details. The relief of Mrs Lib looks all wrong to me esp here head and waist line and how it relates to the hay bail. Considering PCGS gave it a blessing, it wont hurt to block it up and dig a little but I as I said, it looks like the batch of fakes from a few years ago to me.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Based on that image I grade it "gooey"
Very interesting and educational....plus it is refreshing too see you guys being civilized !
Wouldn't be surprised to find out that there were some "play nice " PM's from higher up behind this, but either way it does you all credit and strengthens the forum
Realone, get some better pics asap ! You've got everyones attention...now I want to know what's up with that thing !
Edit: scratch that, after getting dizzy from the obverse picture, I'm going to add that the face looks bad too. I'm really surprised PCGS slabbed this one.
You could get a second opinion by submitting it to NGC, with a nice letter explaining what you would like for them to evaluate and what additional charges might be involved in such an analysis.
We all hope to have such a dilemma in our lives, the search for the Truth. Good Luck.
OINK