Argree OR Disgree--Govt will pull all copper copper/zinc cents from circulation
ambro51
Posts: 13,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am going to predict that the US Government, through the Federal Reserve Banks, will begin to pull out all copper and copper/zinc cents from circulation as they introduce the Steel Cent. Precedent for this would be the removal of the old style $20 bills.
Finding a pre 2009 cent in circulation thirty years from now will be like finding a Wheatie today.
Finding a pre 2009 cent in circulation thirty years from now will be like finding a Wheatie today.
0
Comments
I dunno. If theres money to be made melting cents, and only the govt can do it.....makes you wonder....
Older Canadian 5¢ coins were worth 14¢ each in melt value awhile back, because they have more nickel in them than the USA 5¢ coins which are 75% copper.
<< <i>I am going to predict that the US Government, through the Federal Reserve Banks, will begin to pull out all copper and copper/zinc cents from circulation as they introduce the Steel Cent. Precedent for this would be the removal of the old style $20 bills.
Finding a pre 2009 cent in circulation thirty years from now will be like finding a Wheatie today. >>
Probably can't use the $20 bill comparison since bills have an 18 month life span on average. Coins, on the other hand, have a 25 year life span on average.
However, I do suspect copper cents are going to start disappearing pretty soon. Zinc cents will not.
"Uncurrent coins are redeemed by the Federal Reserve Banks and forwarded to the mint for 'disposition'...uncurrent or mutilated coins received by the Mint are melted and reused in the manufacture of coinage strips."
http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=coin_specifications
It will happen. Whenever the life of coinage is mentioned, paper is given a lifespan of 18 months and coins are given a lifespan of 30 years. 1982 was 26 years ago.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Canada is actively doing it with their older bronze cents and nickel five cents coins. The RCM has actually contracted with a firm to go through the coins and pull the old ones for smelting. The USM would not do such, for fear of creating a panic that resulted in huge coin shortages and monetary instability.
Older Canadian 5¢ coins were worth 14¢ each in melt value awhile back, because they have more nickel in them than the USA 5¢ coins which are 75% copper. >>
The old Canadian nickels peaked at around 30c each.
The CAnadians are removing all their old coins that can be
made more cheaply today. They are not doing it very acti-
vely however and are pulling them from a single city. (Tor-
onto). Low denomination coins circulate so poorly that large
percentages will never reach the location.
Pulling coins is extremely easy and can be accomplished by
machine.
There is no point in pulling the zinc cents except for health
concerns which seems unlikely at this late date. Some count-
ers appear to already be pulling copper cents and this might
be at the behest of the FED.
Separating copper from steel cents will be more difficult be-
cause of the weight similarity.
It would seem unlikely any of the later one cent coins will be
removed until some semblance of sanity returns to the cur-
rency system.
cause of the weight similarity.
An electronic magnet over a pile of these would seperate them quite easily.
It is confusing to figure out what Canada is doing.
The most detailed Coin World article said ALL cents were "recycled." Then they say "recycled" meant returned to circulation. So even though they have steel cents now, they are putting bronze and zinc cents back into circulation.
They are three kinds of nickel containing Canadian nickels. Pre about 1982 they were pure nickel with some exceptions. Then they went to our blend of 25% nickel. (These both weighed 100 nickels per pound or 4.54.grams each. The US version is 5 grams) Now the Canadians use nickel plated steel.
Eventually, our two governments might try to withdraw them, but I think the cent will disappear completely first.
See cut&paste info below.
About 1943 Steel Cents
Q. David Bowers - September 16, 1998
The Annual Report of the Director of the Mint for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1961 reported that zinc-coated steel coinage accomplished in 1943 at the Philadelphia, Denver, and San Francisco mints amounted to 1,093,838,670 pieces with a face value of $10,938,386.70. Beginning in 1945 the Treasury Department began withdrawing these pieces from circulation.
In the first year of the effort, some 690,281 coins were taken from the channels of commerce. Withdrawals continued to mount, with the peak occurring in 1950 when the total withdrawal amounted to 15,655,891 coins at the Philadelphia Mint, 7,206,398 at the San Francisco Mint, and 6,265,150 at Denver, for a total withdrawal of 29,127,439 coins. No attention was paid to the mintmarks withdrawn. As of June 30, 1961, the total amount of unredeemed pieces amounted to 934,156,425 coins with a face value of $9,341,564.25.
<< <i>I am going to predict that the US Government, through the Federal Reserve Banks, will begin to pull out all copper and copper/zinc cents from circulation as they introduce the Steel Cent. Precedent for this would be the removal of the old style $20 bills.
Finding a pre 2009 cent in circulation thirty years from now will be like finding a Wheatie today. >>
I disagree.
If the value of the cent is more than face, then it will have collector value, much like old silver coinage.
The general public will hoard the cent, much like they do already.
If the government mandated a retrieval, then this would only cause the general public to quickly hoard the copper cent. Again, much like the silver coinage.
Thanks,
Chris
Original internal Mint documents are quite clear that there was no special program to remove the steel cents. (This is one of the problems of relying on once-accurate, but now out-of-date second hand material.)
[Added: The above seems to imply that ambro51 should not have relied on the 1998 article by QDB. That is incorrect on my part. The documents I refer to were not located until after the 1998 article and, further, their contents has not yet been published. Thus, the original poster could not have known his source material was obsolete. I apologize for any negative insinuation.]
I already pull every copper cent out of my change and I know there's lots on these boards who do the same.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
<< <i>I'll also add that copper cents will disappear just like wheaties by informed folks who want the copper cheaply. >>
They're a cheap source of copper for small metalworking projects. We're getting into jewelry making and cire perdue (lost-wax casting) sculpture....
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>A similar removal was discussed after WW-II for the steel cents and silver nickels. The treasury department’s opinion was that the reward was not worth the effort, and that normal attrition and public curiosity would gradually replace the coins. That is what happened. >>
The FED pulled substantial numbers of the steel cents from circulation
in the late 1950's. If memory serves it was a couple hundred million, anyway.
<< <i>
About 1943 Steel Cents
Q. David Bowers - September 16, 1998
The Annual Report of the Director of the Mint for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1961 reported that zinc-coated steel coinage accomplished in 1943 at the Philadelphia, Denver, and San Francisco mints amounted to 1,093,838,670 pieces with a face value of $10,938,386.70. Beginning in 1945 the Treasury Department began withdrawing these pieces from circulation.
In the first year of the effort, some 690,281 coins were taken from the channels of commerce. Withdrawals continued to mount, with the peak occurring in 1950 when the total withdrawal amounted to 15,655,891 coins at the Philadelphia Mint, 7,206,398 at the San Francisco Mint, and 6,265,150 at Denver, for a total withdrawal of 29,127,439 coins. No attention was paid to the mintmarks withdrawn. As of June 30, 1961, the total amount of unredeemed pieces amounted to 934,156,425 coins with a face value of $9,341,564.25. >>
D'oh. Thank you.
That's 159 million approximately.
<< <i>What ambro51 misses is that Treasury deliberately pulled defective coins from circulation. This was normal practice. The steel cents deteriorated much faster than bronze pieces and were thus removed in larger quantities. They were reported separately because of the alloy.
Original internal Mint documents are quite clear that there was no special program to remove the steel cents. (This is one of the problems of relying on once-accurate, but now out-of-date second hand material.)
[Added: The above seems to imply that ambro51 should not have relied on the 1998 article by QDB. That is incorrect on my part. The documents I refer to were not located until after the 1998 article and, further, their contents has not yet been published. Thus, the original poster could not have known his source material was obsolete. I apologize for any negative insinuation.] >>
My understanding is that they ran a weak magnet over the stream of cents coming into
at least the Chicago federal reserve with a belt that would pull steel coins into a bin and
these were weighed and shipped to the mills.
I don't recall the source for this.
I do remember the steel disappearing around here in fits and starts with most of it gone
by the early '60's.
Just my guess
They were around, but uncommon enough you usually pulled them out rather than spent them. Judging from the ones Ive still got in the witmans, most had some rust but were still decent dark grey.
Now in about thirty years...the only cents still circulating will be the ones the govt. magnet seperators allow through. Which will be 99.99% new steelies, and .01 old 43's, about a dozen or two...that got a new lease on life.
I remember seeing a "Pictures in the Headlines" in Bangor Maine roughly about 1947 which showed melted 1943 cents. They were melted and cast into fairly large ingots to be dumped at sea! I would have thought they would have some salvage value. Anybody else remember this?
I thought the govt was trying to save taxpayer money by changing coinage composition, not waste our money by trying to remove, count, inventory and then melt all that Cu & Zn.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
I was in a very similiar situation in the mid 1950's in Bangor, Maine, 95 miles from the border. Only then I was finding more George V coins as a per centage of Canadian coins than I would have in Canada. Occasionally you could find a Edward VII or Queen Victoria coin, but those would be rather slick. Somebody passed an early Queen Victoria shilling in fairly nice condition on to me as a Canadian quarter. Between Maine and New Brunswick, Canada I took 80 Newfoundland halves, last made in 1919, out of circulation. I never ever once saw a Canadian half in circulation dated before 1939. Newfoundland 20 cent pieces circulated as quarters. This was good since the denomination was probably worn off anyway.