What do you think of the Coin World editor’s idea of creating a consumer protection group, and a sur
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I don’t have the latest edition (at least the one that I received) of CW in front of me, but if I recall correctly, there was an idea proposed by the editor related to consumer protection in numismatics. The editorial mentioned that the coin industry is wholly unregulated (which, in my opinion, is the root of many of the problems in the numismatic world), and in order to prevent the government from intervening, the coin industry should take more proactive steps to self regulate. The editorial proposed some sort of organization that can provide some measure of consumer protection and education. In order to pay for this new structure/organization, the editor proposed a surcharge on all coin sales (private sales, auction sales, Ebay sales, etc.) at a fee of 10 cents.
What do you think of this plan? Is it viable, or is it another of the CW editor’s many ideas that are not based in reality? Personally, I think it would be almost impossible to enforce this 10 cent per coin sale surcharge, and then get the money collected into this new organization. Somehow I cannot see multi-thousand dollar coins changing hands on the bourse, and then having the dealer ask the buyer to place a dime in an envelope which will be sent to this consumer protection organization.
Additionally, the coin industry does not need another happy talk education-based organization (we all know of the recent travails of another supposed education-based organization lately). What we need is oversight by an organization with some enforcement procedures and stiff penalties. Perhaps then we will get some consumer protection in the coin world, and we can finally address the issue of misrepresentations, well-managed promotions, and market manipulations, which consumers frequently face in this industry.
What do you think of this plan? Is it viable, or is it another of the CW editor’s many ideas that are not based in reality? Personally, I think it would be almost impossible to enforce this 10 cent per coin sale surcharge, and then get the money collected into this new organization. Somehow I cannot see multi-thousand dollar coins changing hands on the bourse, and then having the dealer ask the buyer to place a dime in an envelope which will be sent to this consumer protection organization.
Additionally, the coin industry does not need another happy talk education-based organization (we all know of the recent travails of another supposed education-based organization lately). What we need is oversight by an organization with some enforcement procedures and stiff penalties. Perhaps then we will get some consumer protection in the coin world, and we can finally address the issue of misrepresentations, well-managed promotions, and market manipulations, which consumers frequently face in this industry.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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In the land of Bad Ideas, this is the Queen Mum.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
out the undesirables.
if that fails collectors should tell other collectors who to deal with
resulting in less business for the undesirables.
if a buyer does not wish to do any research only god can help him
and no laws will save him.
the coin world editor needs to be handed a clue stick.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And from an admittedly selfish point of view, the more we "protect" people who don't know what they're doing, the more they are likely to be willing to throw big money at stuff and raise prices for everyone. (It seems to have happened with slabs.) I think stuff is expensive enough already.
If people feel the need to be 'protected' in this hobby, I have a novel idea. Try education. A little education can go a long way towards protection of collectors.
As Ronald Reagan once said "If anyone tells you 'I am from the government and I am here to help you' run, don't walk away".
<< <i> The editorial mentioned that the coin industry is wholly unregulated (which, in my opinion, is the root of many of the problems in the numismatic world), and in order to prevent the government from intervening, the coin industry should take more proactive steps to self regulate. >>
The "coin industry"? Who are those people, and why should I be required to support them financially, if I have no say in what they decide (and I most assuredly wouldn't)?
<< <i>When the inept consumer protection group isn't able to meet its unmeasurable, ill-defined goals, it will determine that it is because the surcharge isn't enough. >>
Yep. Just like any other government program, if you're not getting results (my prediction- they wouldn't), just charge more money.
I've got a proposal of my own... how about people taking responsibility for their own decisions? One of the major problems in this country today is that it appears a great many people believe that if anything bad happens to them, it's somebody elses' fault.
Now, I'm not supporting the idea of protecting those who would take advantage of the unsuspecting, but there's got to be a point where people are held accountable for educating themselves in order to keep from becoming victims of the scammers out there. Regulations aren't going to get rid of those who are looking for a shortcut in life by cheating people (Enron was regulated, wasn't it?), and the sooner people realize this, the sooner they can get on with whatever it is they need to do to cover their backsides.
PASS
K S
If Coin World wants to help, they should cancel their full-page advertisers.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Hypocrisy at its finest.
If Coin World wants to help, they should cancel their full-page advertisers. >>
Great idea. Just the one's that sell raw coins that are cleaned and overgraded.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If Coin World wants to help, they should cancel their full-page advertisers. >>
Well, there's that, too...
On the flip side though, it would probably be more profitable for Coin World to keep those advertisers and just have collectors pay a "consumer protection" tax (to protect them from Coin World's advertisers, perhaps?), so I doubt the advertisers will be going away anytime soon.
However, before we all jump on the anti-government bandwagon, I'd like to point out that regulatory commissions can be a consumer's best friend. As examples, I have filed complaints against vendors with these state oversight entities (or threatened to) and I have always got my way, even with four-figure sums that I had all but lost.
Insurance agency and firm won't admit that they changed your policy without your permission, and you're out $2500 on a claim they won't accept? There's no need for expensive lawyers and their slow-moving processes -- a complaint with careful documentation to your state's Insurance Commissioner is free and gets results in three weeks.
Your bank is gouging you for multiple overdraft fees after they assured you that your funds had already cleared? Don't give up; those guys are already under scrutiny for excessive fees. Write a complaint to the Banking Commissioner, and give the bank one last chance to refund your money before you send it in. Worked for me.
In this case it sounds like we are proposing a private institution, which would probably not be as powerful and not much different in authority than the ANA. Given the popularity of coin collecting, the dollars involved, and the "investment potential" that is often bandied about (good grief, look at the scope of what Tom Noe did at the state level), a commissioner's office in charge of licensing, along with a small staff -- including already qualified numismatists -- would not be out of line with what other industries already work with. And believe me, the threat of license suspension or revocation is heavy weaponry indeed.
edit: formatting
crack down on the coin business. Various models of self regulation were debated at the time but the idea went nowhere which
was not a surprise.
When it became obvious that the federal govt. was not going to do anything the self regulation talk went away quickly.
<< <i>a commissioner's office in charge of licensing, along with a small staff -- including already qualified numismatists -- would not be out of line with what other industries already work with. >>
Not needed. Coin collecting isn't an industry- it's a hobby.
Aside from the fact that a small staff would grow to be a large one (how many government agencies ever get smaller), the example of currently existing TPGs shows that collectors would voluntarily pay for a service if they perceive it to be of value to them.
<< <i>However, before we all jump on the anti-government bandwagon, I'd like to point out that regulatory commissions can be a consumer's best friend. >>
"Can be" and "will be" are two entirely different things.
I received an email from a buyer last week letting me know that the package I sent was received at his post office damaged, with the contents missing. When I inquired at my post office about the possibility of reporting the loss with the idea that, should the lost item turn up, it could be returned to me, I was told that they could no longer accept reports locally. I had to call an 800 number to talk to a "consumer service" rep, who told me there was nothing that could be done.
So much for helping this consumer, I guess.
<< <i>I believe that it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.
Too many people, collectors, dealers, the ANA, and now newspaper editors, have wildly overestimated their long term importance. As I've said before, the coins are important, the collectors that study them are important, nothing and no one else is really that important. >>
bingo! can't be said much better then that
this single post by joconnor should be the tagline of this whole danged message board
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe that it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.
Too many people, collectors, dealers, the ANA, and now newspaper editors, have wildly overestimated their long term importance. As I've said before, the coins are important, the collectors that study them are important, nothing and no one else is really that important. >>
bingo! can't be said much better then that
this single post by joconnor should be the tagline of this whole danged message board
K S >>
Unfortunately, I need to disagree with Joe O'connor. The coin world is an industry and it needs accountability. In a perfect world the everyman collector and his trusted and loyal dealer are all that matter, but in reality the industry is much more complex. We need some oversight of the industry because there is too much insider-ness not to have oversight.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>We need some oversight of the industry because there is too much insider-ness not to have oversight. >>
You may want/need it, but I don't need there to be oversight of the coin industry. And I'll bet there are plenty of others who feel the same way as I do.
edited to add... If you want to see how much it's needed (regulation), make it voluntary and see how many people agree by putting their own money (not other people's) in for it.
Albums and coin holders added value by organizing and protecting. Commercial authentication by experts added value by separating good from bad. Commercial grading added value by improving product reliability and thereby widening the audience for acceptable coins. Philatelic-Numismatic Covers (PNCs) inflate value by connecting unrelated items. Registered sets inflated value (adding none) by introducing managed competition for both real and arbitrary resources.
Now, businesses are looking for additional ways to churn the limited quantity of coins to extract additional profit. Sell the coin, then sell services for the coin, then sell approval of the services for the coin, ad nauseam. Over time, the coin industry has moved from direct support services: books and basic reference materials, supplies, auctions, authentication; to added services: grading, stars, PQs, variety attribution; to services for the services: stickers saying “It’s really, really, really, ok.” (Underneath is a whole “truly dark side” of cleaning, scrubbing, altering, adjusting, adding, removing, imitating, and fundamentally dishonest services.)
What is the next tier of churn, and where do the revenues of that churn go? Does the hobby get clotted cream, butter, whipped cream or sour curds from this churning? Does it actually matter to most collectors, who simply enjoy the hobby for its basic pleasures?
<< <i>I believe that it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.
Too many people, collectors, dealers, the ANA, and now newspaper editors, have wildly overestimated their long term importance. As I've said before, the coins are important, the collectors that study them are important, nothing and no one else is really that important. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
What percentage of people selling more than $50,000 of coins per year on e-bay declare these transactions on their income tax returns? How about collecting sales tax on taxable transactions?
How about having a business license?
No, these people are the ones who scream the loudest against any changes in the hobby. They like things just the way the are.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>The editorial proposed some sort of organization that can provide some measure of consumer protection and education. In order to pay for this new structure/organization, the editor proposed a surcharge on all coin sales (private sales, auction sales, Ebay sales, etc.) at a fee of 10 cents. >>
Under this scenario, an advanced collector who buys three six-figure coins in a year would pay 30 cents, while a YN putting together a circulated set of Lincolns would pay several dollars. Does anybody really think that would be the right thing to do?
That a suggestion of a 10 cent surcharge is made when an obvious inequity such as described above would result shows that the idea is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to some perceived problem. To be taken seriously, the editoral writer should probably have put a little more thought into the topic before publishing.
<< <i>I believe that it's time for collectors and dealers to get back to numismatics.
Too many people, collectors, dealers, the ANA, and now newspaper editors, have wildly overestimated their long term importance. As I've said before, the coins are important, the collectors that study them are important, nothing and no one else is really that important. >>
In an ideal world, that is most certainly true. I have been around the block a few times and have found that those who live by that credo are largely either getting screwed or doing the screwing.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>The coin world is an industry and it needs accountability. >>
you gotta be kidding, right? we aint talking about the whole danged "coin world", just numismatics, thank you.
NUMISMATICS is NOT a "industry". what the he11 would you say this so-called "industry" manufactures, exactly?
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>The coin world is an industry and it needs accountability. >>
you gotta be kidding, right? we aint talking about the whole danged "coin world", just numismatics, thank you.
NUMISMATICS is NOT a "industry". what the he11 would you say this so-called "industry" manufactures, exactly?
K S >>
Financial services companies (banks, investment houses, capital arms of conglomerates) don't manufacture anything either, and they are certainly an industry. The coin world is no different.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Personally, I can't imagine that securities dealers would care to be lumped in with "purveyors of second-hand goods" (furniture, encrusted pigment on canvas, old coins, etc.) - and vice versa, probably.
Longacre, whatever you're smoking, I want some!
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