WHY CAN'T I SELL NGC COINS ? HELP !! NGC VS PCGS COMMENTARY also !

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 3:49AM

I am PCGS' number one fan as alot of you know.Without them starting the third part grading business years ago,I would not be a collector or a part time dealer in Dollars.
I think when it comes to Dollars,they are night and day above NGC and all the rest.
I probably agree with 75% of the grades on their slabs.
And yes,there are some dogs in their holders.
Because of the above,I sell mostly PCGS coins.

I do look at all the NGC coins in every auction,and at most tables at shows.
Once in a while,I buy an NGC coin because I like the coin.
I usually only like 25% of NGC coins as I think they overgrade by at least a half point.They also put washed out,no luster,hairlined coins in their holders which to me do not belong in my case or on my website.

When I do buy NGC coins and put them in my cases or website,there is almost no interest in them.
We can go through a 4 day show with not one interested person in any NGC coin.

I put them on Ebay,and they hardly get any action.They always sell at a major discount.
Even if I have a beautiful screamer in an NGC holder,it just sits in inventory forever.

Let's go back two years at a major show.
When I would go up to a major wholesaler and look at his dollars,they were 95% PCGS coins,and 5% NGC.
Now the same dealer has 95% NGC coins,and only 5% .

At the last show,after I finished all my buying,I went from table to table asking why they sell 95% NGC coins,and only 5% PCGS.
Most dealers agree that NGC is not what they want to sell,but they only sell them because PCGS is so slow in grading their economy coins,and dealers just can't wait for inventory.
The other reason they said was they were able to buy NGC coins at a discount,and they end up making more money on them once they find a buyer.
These are two pretty sad reasons for selling second rate coins.

If I were hired to fix any of the problems at PCGS...LISTENING David

?? I would fix the turn around time asap.
You are losing millions of dollars !!!!

Anyway...Most major silver dollar Dealers sell either PCGS coins only,or the majority are PCGS,so I am not alone in my thinking that PCGS is the coin to buy in Silver dollars..

I will give 2 quick examples of people not buying NGC dollars from me.

1893 s au50 NGC...I had this coin trying to sell it for bid..which is unheard of for a 93s.
Not one single person had any interest in this coin.
I crossed it on the 1st try,and guys were begging for the coin.
I sold it for $4000.00 more than I was asking for in an NGC holder,and the new owner loves the coin.

NGC 1889cc au50 ..tried to sell it for anything more than $4500.00 which did not happen.
Same coin in PCGS holder brings over $6000.00 easily.
I ended up selling it on Ebay and breaking even on the coin.$1500.00 minimum difference in a nice coin in a white holder.

I think if NGC would clean up their act and start grading in a more accurate way on Morgan and Peace dollars,this major gap would decrease..

But,if they did..and stopped over grading dollars,guys would stop sending coins to them

So ...do it right and lose money ?? or overgrade and grade faster and make money ??
You make the choice..

I just want you guys to read my comments and think before you buy the wrong holder,and can't sell the coin when that time comes,
Thanks for your comments,
Larry

K6AZ · March 24, 2004 4:04AM

Very interesting reading Larry, thanks for your comments.

There is no question that PCGS Morgans are overall nicer for the same grade in PCGS holders, and this goes for the keys, semi-keys, and grades over 65. I have had good luck crossing NGC coins by cracking them out first, but most of these were common dates. If you look closely at the better dates in AU grades, there is simply no comparison.

I don't know how the Peace Dollars stack up, I've been out of that series for several years.

lava · March 24, 2004 4:06AM

Interesting thoughts Larry. I tend to agree. But I'll add a few thoughts.

In defense of the economy lag time, it may be because there is an increased demand in regular service submissions (coins between 300 and 3000).

As for NGC, the mentality of buyers, including me, seems to be "would this coin cross to PCGS." If the answer is yes, it can usually be purchased at a discount. If the answer is no, it will be a tough sell. I think the same thing holds true for ANACS.

If someone has a good eye in deciding what will cross, I think there are INCREDIBLE buying opportunities of NGC and ANACS holdered coins, much more so than in PCGS coins because of the premium that goes along with the coin being housed in a PCGS slab.

I think one lesson is if you already own the coins, you are better off submitting them to PCGS for crossover. Another lesson is if you attempt to sell the NGC or ANACS coins and they don't sell, then the market is subtly suggesting in their collective opinion that they didn't think the coin would cross.

I remember your NGC 1893-s. I think that was an easy crossover decision, because otherwise you are asking the buyers to take that chance, and at the price of an 1893-s, that is a little more risk than many are willing to take. Accordingly, you made the right call on crossing it and it paid off.

So generally Larry, I think your comments on right on the mark, but I'd add that YOU are the type of savvy collector with a trained eye that stands to clean up buying cheaper NGC and ANACS slabs and crossing them to the beloved PCGS slabs.

TONEDDOLLARS · March 24, 2004 4:15AM

Larry,

What does this say about the buyer of this 93-s? He passed on it in an NGC holder and bought it in a PCGS holder. Is the holder making the coin look better

Or is it just a case of holder bias?

If the very same coin sells in one holder and not the other, are we buying the holder or the coin

. I do not doubt your results as I have seen some of your coins and they are very nice. i am not a dealer , but I do sell my dupes and I seem to get the same money in either holder.

This is not a flame, just wondering why (out loud) collectors turn their nose up at coins in certain holders. obviously the coins was all there if they crossed, could not your clients tell this with out some third party telling their opinion.

TD

lava · March 24, 2004 4:22AM

Toned Dollars, you raise some excellent questions, and I have the same questions, and I think Larry does as well. Buyers should be buying the coin, and there are many very nice morgans in NGC and ANACS slabs that are accurately graded, that would cross to PCGS, and that sit in the case and get overlooked. And if you bought such a coin from Larry, or someone else who bought such a slab for the coin's beauty and not its slabbed grade, then you'd be in pretty good shape. But I think Larry's point is that there are a lot of people simply willing to pass on a coin and keep looking for a PCGS slab. I share his sentiment in this regard.

As I said, I think this makes a great buying opportunity for the savvy collector who can pick out the nices coins in NGC and ANACS slabs.

PhillyJoe · March 24, 2004 4:30AM

Larry, here's my 2 cents.
In one paragraph, you state ngc overgrades their coins by half a point. Then you said your ngc '93s crossed at the same grade at pcgs. So I think your own theory cannot be taken as a broad statement. The best that any us can do is judge the candy; not the wrapper.

Joe

prooflike · March 24, 2004 4:42AM

"He passed on it in an NGC holder and bought it in a PCGS holder. Is the holder making the coin look better"

I think it is holder bias... assume that NGC grades 1/2 point high, then a coin being sold even at a discount to grade is not worth it as there are other coins, (in PCGS holders) that are potentially available. Even if others are not available, would it cross to a real (aka PCGS) holder.

Don;t get me wrong, there are -some- nice coins in NGC holders, but overall, I think PCGS has better coins for the grade. I also agree with PQP that NGC will slab washed-out, poor luster or hair-lined coins when PCGS would most likely bag 'em.

Needless to say, I don;t even look at NGC coins anymore, only PCGS, they are a distant #1 in my book. Although I do have one older NGC slab with a 37D Buffalo that is a borderline 67 and would cross to a PCGS 66.

dorkkarl · March 24, 2004 4:51AM

<< WHY CAN'T I SELL NGC COINS >>

if they're ngc coins, why don't you give them back to ngc?

K S

FanOfModerns · March 24, 2004 5:06AM

<< Needless to say, I don;t even look at NGC coins anymore, only PCGS, they are a distant #1 in my book. >>

PCGS coins are clearly the best and anyone who tries to sell you a NGC coin is trying to cheat you.

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 5:11AM

TD,
the buyer of the 93s never saw the coin in an NGC holder....
Nobody even asked about the coin while it was in an NGC holder....

I guess I better start cracking and crossing more....
but since I work 60 hours a week in my Corvair business,I just don't have the time to play the games that full time dealers play..

One game is taking a 65 PCGS morgan and sending it in to NGC to have it upgrade to a 66..and selling the coin..I mean slab for more money..
That is a game I won't play..

back to selling Corvair parts,
Larry

MICHAELDIXON · March 24, 2004 5:19AM

Larry,
You aren't making the PCGS "rejects" over on the other boards happy! Shame on you! You know they are lurkers over here 'on the real boards' and will be taking your thread over there to post and badmouth you. But, of course, who gives a rat's behind? They never bought anything from me and probably not from you either!!!!!

lava · March 24, 2004 5:21AM

When I suggested crossing your NGC coins to same grade PCGS coins, it was merely to attract the folks that close their mind on any slabs other than PCGS.

Russ · March 24, 2004 5:21AM

<< TD,
the buyer of the 93s never saw the coin in an NGC holder....
Nobody even asked about the coin while it was in an NGC holder.... >>

Larry,

Until you made that statement I was about to offer the opinion that you ran in to a series of idiots when the coin was in the NGC holder. But, now I see that nobody "asked" you about the coin. I guess you just left it laying in the case and expected it to sell itself? If it were me behind the table, every Morgan collector that came by would have been handed the coin for a look-see.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · March 24, 2004 5:27AM

<< PCGS coins are clearly the best and anyone who tries to sell you a NGC coin is trying to cheat you. >>

SHUT UP wallstreetman!

K S

beartracks42 · March 24, 2004 5:43AM

Please pardon my brief rant:

PCGS coins are clearly the best and anyone who tries to sell you a NGC coin is trying to cheat you.

You are truely showing your ignorance, and as Dorkarl said,"shut up".

Larry,

I have one question: If you did not like the coins in the NGC holders, why did you buy them? I can understand your frustrations at not getting the price that your coin deserves, but I believe that it is due to "Plastic bias" and not your coins. If I were in your position, I believe that I would look very hard at putting everything in PCGS holders, if that is what your customers want.

I know you deal in very highly graded coins, but if you happen to have a 1895-S in AU grade, even if it is in a NGC or ANACS holder, please send me details, as I am in the market for one.

Thanks

dragon · March 24, 2004 5:45AM

PQpeace,

Your statements are fairly accurate but not 100%. Had you made this post several years ago I would've agreed with you 100% as NGC had a long stretch in the mid '90's where they were just awful on grading dollars, like REALLY awful, and I think most of the worst examples of overgraded NGC dollars were graded during that time frame. NGC was especially horrible on grading dollars in MS65 and above during that time, in fact, many of the common date dollars they graded 66 and 67 would probably downgrade maybe 2 full points if regraded today. PCGS has also had its days in the early to mid '90's of being very lenient on dollars, but not nearly as bad as NGC was. It was about this time that NGC graded dollars began to trade at a significant discount to PCGS and they never really recovered since regardless of changing standards at NGC and/or PCGS.

As of late however, NGC has definately tightened the reins and they are presently grading dollars every bit as tight as PCGS is right now IMO with the exception of giving out the DMPL designation.

Many people look at NGC or ANACS graded coins these days and the first question they ask themselves is: "will this crossover to PCGS?" which is rediculous IMO. The first question they should ask is: "do I like this coin and is the price consistent with the grade I think it is?" I would also point out that there are many nice PQ dollars still in NGC holders out there (especially the very old ones) and I have no problem purchasing them for my collection when I see them offered. As far as people not wanting to buy NGC graded coins, you have to realize that one big contributing factor is those silly registry sets, and another is ignorance. I think serious collectors who KNOW the series will buy premium coins in most any holder when offered.

dragon

stman · March 24, 2004 5:46AM

WOW, some great information here. Being a collector ONLY for many years before joining these boards I just bought coins. NOW, since joining the boards I've learned it's not about the coins but whether they are "PCGS coins" or NGC coins."

So I've been to many shows and seen some beautiful Morgans in NGC holders. They had a certain "Look" that I was looking for but darn.... I looked and yes they were "NGC coins" so no doubt I passed on them because the main thing was WILL THE DARN THINGS CROSS.

Thank you PCGS boards for enlightening me on the market and what flavor coins to buy and re-sell. My Granddaughter thanks you too as she reads these threads once in a while.

mr3holesinone · March 24, 2004 5:55AM

Is your message just that you want PCGS to tighten their turn around times on submissions?

Larry I'd love to be offered your beautiful NGC screamers, especially at a discount! I've bought many NGC coins and I personally do not find that much difference between NGC and PCGS graded coins. I worked for a national coin dealer for approximately three years and can tell that if there are any differences they are minute.

A count of my graded coins is 100 PCGS, 82 NGC and 12 ANACS. Many raw coins but NO other services. The types of coins I have range from colonial, Jefferson full step nickels, Washington quarters, Barber halves, Franklin FBL halves, Morgan dollars, Peace dollars (full set, mixed NGC/PCGS MS63), some gold and a lot of commems.

Maybe I've just been lucky in my acquisitions but I see NO difference between NGC and PCGS graded coins. Hmmm, maybe looking at the COIN and not the slab counts for something!

TONEDDOLLARS · March 24, 2004 5:57AM

I totally agree with Dragon.

I own many pq coins in NGC holders. I also own two PQ dollars that are in ICG holders. I have had great success with coins I have bought and crossed to PCGS that were in ICG holders. Of the 7 I have submitted six crossed and one down graded by a point. I later sent it in and it upgraded. This all leads me to my next point, no more crossovers for me. If the coin is good enough for me I do not care what holder its in. When you send a coin in twice and it comes back with a different grade each time, this should tell you something.

I bought a coin at the Baystate show this past weekend that is in a NNCS holder. National Numismatic Certification Service. This holder dates back to 1986. The coin is a true headlight, amazing luster with great colors. It will stay in this holder for all I care. I do not need to send this coin in to someone to have them return it as a lower grade and send it in again and have them grade it higher. The coin is the coin and anyone who wants to take the time to look at the coin will see that it is all there.

TD

stman · March 24, 2004 6:00AM

Ah, come on Toneddollars..... you know that little voice inside you is saying "Will it cross though, but will it cross?"

RotatedRainbows · March 24, 2004 6:02AM

Maybe I've just been lucky in my acquisitions but I see NO difference between NGC and PCGS graded coins. Hmmm, maybe looking at the COIN and not the slab counts for something!

No, it is not luck it is called being a REAL collector that took the time to learn about coins. Unfortunately many (most?) collectors now a days believe the only thing they have to learn to collect coins is how to read i.e. what is the number on the slab.

jom · March 24, 2004 6:03AM

<< As far as people not wanting to buy NGC graded coins, you have to realize that one big contributing factor is those silly registry sets, and another is ignorance. >>

You see. This is the crux of the discussion. If people look at an NGC graded coin and say "will this cross?" is a point I've been trying to make for years. If that coin IS crossable won't it get cracked out? If this happens to all the correctly graded NGC coins what will be left to "represent" NGC coins? All the overgrades. So when you walk around the bourse or go to an auction what you have left in NGC holders may very well end up being overgrades, no? Is that a TRUE representation of NGC's ablility to grade? I don't think so. Of course, if you remain ignorant you'd never know this.

Now this happens a lot LESS to NGC than to ANACS or ICG or whoever. I mean, how long will a correctly graded MS65 Morgan (that is worth enough) last in an ICG holder? About 30 seconds on the bourse floor, I'd imagine. Therefore, one never sees a correctly graded Morgan in an ICG holder because it has long since been cracked out.

Also, another thing I'd like to point out. The "best" grading service is NOT necessarily the one who grades the tightest. It is the one that is the most CONSISTANT. Consistancy is really all anyone wants from a grading service. Unless you are:

1) Of the opinion that grading coins is a game that should be played because of the market inconsistancy. ie the "crackout" game.

or

2) You are a grading service that wants more submissions. I mean, if a grading service were perfectly consistant then there'd be no reasons for resubmissions now would there?

jom

Peaceman · March 24, 2004 6:03AM

Larry,

Always like to look at your inventory for Peace $.... it's second to none!! I agree with you on every point. Here's my .02

1) PCGS coins are graded correctly or undergraded. Premium coins in premium holders.... I think it's genius.. it will keep the "crackout game" alive and well for years to come....
2) NGC $ coins are fine for purchases under $ 800 IMHO... when you get over that, the buyer risks the chance of losing too much $ trying to cross the coin or trying to sell it. I'd never buy a 1928 MS66 Peace $ in a NGC holder for even bid... I'd be too worried it was overgraded like you say and make it into a 65 holder at PCGS.... a 10k loss... no thanks... now you have a coin you have to keep resubmitting..... your $ is tied up...etc....
3) I've bought some peace $ lately that have been undergraded by NGC... so much so I think they'll upgrade by a pt at PCGS.... (we'll see in the next 3-4 weeks) so I think right now at least, NGC is on track with their grading.....

I think it all comes down to the $ amount people are willing to risk to "make sure" that the coin is graded acurately.... From my experiance, under $ 1,000 is about the limit...... PCGS is far superior... you'd never say "Why can't I sell this coin in a PCGS holder...."

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 6:04AM

Michael,
I don't give a rat's *** what they think accross the street.
When I has tons of beautiful NGC coins months ago,I put them on Their board along with PCGS coins..and all THEY asked about were the PCGS coins..
so THEY don't even want NGC dollars.

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 6:12AM

I am happy I am making you guys think..and me too
good for us to have discussions like this.
I do respect your opinions..except Dragon...just kidding

Larry

lava · March 24, 2004 6:26AM

Toned Dollars, let me respectfully summarize the real meaning of your latest post: "I know what I am doing, so it is ok for me to ignore the slab and buy the coin."

I for one do not have a problem with YOU doing that. Most here probably don't have a problem with you doing it. Many of us have learned, however, that it is easy to get burned unless you are a great judge of coins. A slabbed grade is not the end of the analysis, but it is comforting to have the opinion of a third-party grader, and PCGS is the most sought after opinion, maybe not by you, BUT by seemingly everyone else. That is the point Larry is making. People want PCGS slabs, so much so that great coins in other slabs (notably NGC according to Larry, but I think ANACS as well) are getting lost in the hysteria of the slab.

If you crossed 7 out of 7 ICG slabs to PCGS, more power to you. You are the collector that can have a field day in this environment picking up these overlooked coins and crossing them. For many of us, however, we know we aren't going to have that kind of cross rate, and we don't even bother with ICG slabbed coins.

As smart as you may be however, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way by any means, I think Larry's concerns will hit home with you once you go to sell your coins. Then you'll see what Larry is saying. The vast majority of folks pass on coins not in PCGS slabs. Don't believe us? Try sticking one of your wonderful ICG coins on ebay. Then I think you too will echo Larry's sentiments -- why is such a nice coin getting overlooked.

Another spin on Larry's thread I guess could be "it is too bad that most collectors aren't as smart as Toned Dollar." Whether we are as smart or not, a lot of people simply aren't willing to take the risk that the coin may not be all that it is slabbed to be.

Personally, I am willing to take the chance and buy nice coins, but I think I am better off crossing them before trying to sell them, because either I have to sell them too cheap, or they don't sell.

Interesting thread.

DennisH · March 24, 2004 6:38AM

Larry:

I've had a chance to look at your coins many times, so I know you basically never buy stuff that isn't nice. As such, I think you and Steve should adopt a strict new business policy (if I was your partner -- oh to dream! -- I'd do it in a heartbeat):

If it's a non-PCGS coin that you like for its grade and it has a Grey Sheet value of more than (pick a number), it MUST be submitted for crossover before being offered for retail sale. The reality of today's marketplace is, there's potentially too much additional income on the table not to do it.

-- Dennis Halladay

TONEDDOLLARS · March 24, 2004 6:48AM

Dragon,

I'm sorry if I came across as someone who thinks they are smarter than anyyone else. If you knew me you would know that I'm really not that way at all. I want to apologize to one and all if thats how I came off.

My point I thought was that I'm more into the coin than the holder, maybe because I buy only toned dollars this has helped in my luck at crossing. The coins that I have bought have for the most part have exceptional luster and color. I'm sure this in some small part helps with the grade. I could only hope that I am one half as good at grading as most that I have met on these boards.

I have only meant to imply that if you really look at the coin who cares what holder its in. I have crossed those few coins to PCGS holders so in some way I am probaly just as quilty as others in holder bias. I have sent a few crossovers and raw coins to NGC. The truth be told all my submittals have come, or have gone in as freeby's. From my memberships or promotions.

Once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

TD

lava · March 24, 2004 6:53AM

Toned Dollar, you did not come across as being smarter, and I aplogize if it seemed like I characterized your post that way. I was expressing my opinion that you must be smarter than the average collector, because your posted track record proves it. So, if anyone feels bad about you it is my fault -- blame me folks. I thought your post Toned Dollars was very good.

haletj · March 24, 2004 6:58AM

No one wants to buy your NGC coins for they don't want to someday end up with the same hassle in selling them that you have. It is too bad they can't learn to buy the coin and not the holder.

jcping · March 24, 2004 8:04AM

> Therefore, one never sees a correctly graded Morgan in an ICG holder because it has long since been cracked out.

I posted the same idea on this board several times. I got "Reply" and received "PM" to tell me my thinking is dangerous. I am glad that someone is with me.

Go to the major coin shows. Talk to national known coin dealers. Ask them which graded coins are easy to sell and what coin is the toughest mover. Of course, wrongly graded coins cannot sell. Don't get surprised that if they tell you high graded (MS66 and up) NGC coins are tough movers.

Typetone · March 24, 2004 9:15AM

Larry et all:

Try to see this situation from the average collector's (ie retail buyer's) point of view.

The fact is that many average collectors are not totally confident in their grading abilities. I confess that I am not.

But, these collectors observe that PCGS coins generally sell for more than NGC coins of the same grade, with the same eye appeal.

Therefore, many of us believe that a dealer will try to cross a coin to PCGS before selling it.

If it is being sold in an NGC holder, a safe belief is that the coin does not quite meet the PCGS standard, or else it would already be crossed.

So, when presented with an eye appealing coin in an NGC 65 holder, my belief is that it would be in a 64 holder if sent to PCGS.

Therefore I would be willing to pay a PCGS 64 price, or maybe a little more.

If the NGC coin were to be offered at a PCGS price, or at only a small discount, I would probably pass. At an important discount, I would consider it.

Larry, in your case, I don't know the price you were asking compared to a PCGS price a grade lower. Since the coins were probably nice, you were probably asking closer to same grade PCGS prices.

I would not have asked to see them in that case. Not because they weren't great coins, they probably were, but simply because I am not confident in my ability to determine whether a coin could meet the PCGS standard, and therefore be worth the PCGS price when it comes time to sell. In fact, I would have to assume that the coin would not meet the standard. If it could, I would assume it would already be presented to me in a PCGS holder.

I guess that this situation creates opportunity for those with good eyes to buy NGC material to cross. However, most of us retail ollectors do not believe we have those eyes.

I have probably purchased 1/2 dozen beautiful NGC coins in my collecting career that I was certain could cross (usually at a discount to the PCGS price). In all cases, I failed multiply times to cross them. I was never able to sell them easily or profitably. Usually dealers would not consider them. That includes dealers who always buy my PCGS coins, and who claim that NGC coins are often as good as PCGS.

So, that is how many of us see it. This is not really an opinion, just a statement of how we see things.

Greg

DennisH · March 24, 2004 9:23AM

Greg:

Good comments!

dizzlecc · March 24, 2004 9:29AM

For me, the answer lies in where you buy coins.

Over the net with lots of choices, it's easier to concentrate on pcgs and somewhat less worry on the grade of the coin.

In person at a show or store when you can get a good look at the coin, holder doesn't matter between pcgs or ngc. I do see more ngc slabs for sale, for whatever reason.

paigowjohnny · March 24, 2004 9:39AM

I was trying to think of some pithy input...but I'm stuck. Most of my slabbed coins are NGC. Why ?? Because that's what was available. Are they accurately graded ?? IMHO, for the most part, yes. Did I pay a fair price ?? For the most part, yes

Do I have PCGS slabbed coins ?? Yes. Are they accurately graded ?? IMHO, for the most part, yes. Did I pay a fair price ??? For the most part, yes.

Do I have ANACS slabbed coins.....same answers etc.

I don't plan to sell soon. I have nothing for or against PCGS, NGC, etc. I will concede that PCGS has high market regard RIGHT NOW. But who knows 10 years from now who will be in favor.

PCGS, NGC, and ANACS are all solid trustworthy companies, with their strengths and weaknesses. If you want to be a registry player or turn a fast buck...well follow your lemmings. If you want to be a coin collector...keep an open mind.

darktone · March 24, 2004 9:51AM

I'll leave you all to worry about who is the better grader..... in the mean time I am going to buy the best coin- be that it's in a PCGS/NGC/ANACS/SEGS/ICG or even an ACG slab- I am going after the coin. mike

nankraut · March 24, 2004 10:07AM

Larry: You're working 65hrs per week in your CORVAIR BUSINESS? Yikes! The Corvair was the ACG of the automobile brands, IMHO. (Just kidding:signcool

I used to drive a turbocharged spyder, until Ralph Nader trashed the brand.

MadMarty · March 24, 2004 10:25AM

Here is a story from a dealer here. Last summer he bought a very nice raw 1889-CC Morgan, when we were at the St Louis show last fall he drove down to have me walk it through. The coin have a very nice album toned gold patina to it. Well PCGS bagged it for questionable toning! There was $100 down the crapper. So off to NCS the coin went for conservation and over to NGC for slabbing! Came back in a MS63PL. Well according to people here, the coin will never sell because it's in a NGC slab, right? WRONG, sold a month later for $25,000!

badger · March 24, 2004 10:42AM

I took a chance on NGC coins as I am trying to fill gaps in my collection. I have had better luck in breaking out the coins. Overall, the experience with trying to cross over the coins has not been pleasant.

Attempt #1 - Very good - Both Crossed at grade via a slab submission
1939 25c Pr66
1953 25c Pr68 Cam

Attempt #2 - Very good - Broke coins out of slab and submitted
1952 10c Pr66 Cam ==> Pr67 Cam (UP!)
1952 25c Pr68 Cam == > Pr68 Cam (Same)
1957 5c Pr 67 Cam ==> Pr66 Cam (Down)
1950 10c Pr67 Cam ==> Pr64 Cam (Down Three grades! What was I thinking?)

Ok - This seems easy. Submitted the following in the slabs

Attempt #3 - Lousy - DNC for all the following:
1951 5c Pr68 Cam
1951 5c Pr68 Cam
1952 5c Pr68 Cam
1953 10c Pr68 Cam
1954 10c Pr69 Cam
1957 5c Pr69 Cam
1964 25c Pr69 Ucam
1953 1c Pr68 Cam
1958 1c Pr68 UCam
1954 10c Pr68 Cam
1960 50c Pr68 UCam
1961 1c Pr69 UCam
1955 1c Pr68 UCam
1957 10c Pr69 UCam
1961 50c Pr68 UCam
1953 10c Pr68*Cam (Restricted cross to 69Cam) - Long shot, so not disappointed
1950 1c Pr66 UCam

Then two crossed:
1960 1c Pr67 Cam Small Date - Crossed
1960 1c Pr68 Cam Small Date - Crossed

Do you think I should have broken out of the slabs? Seemed like a risk at the time?

The acid test for me was - if I received the coins in a PCGS slab in a sight unseen bid, would I be happy with the purchase? If not, why submit expecting a cross at same grade. A few were borderline, but I was surprised by the number of misses.

I'm going to the grading seminar in Vegas to better understand the grading.

roadrunner · March 24, 2004 2:04PM

The idea that any truly worthy NGC coin will cross is pure trash.
I'm quite confident in my ability to grade high end seated coins and PCGS will NOT cross anything that is not exceptional. I've seen absolute swill in their holders too. I've done a pair of submissions to PCGS about 2 years apart (2002, 2004) where I sent off my PQ'est high-end seated pieces. Many were on borderline to be no-brainer upgrades. PCGS crossed 1 out of 15 or so coins. I've never had a problem selling a coin I think is really nice in an NGC or PCGS holder. It's the ones I have doubts about that occasionally get me in trouble....and I know I could have difficulty when it comes time to sell. I don't play this game anymore with them because it is a losing proposition. Having PCGS review their own old-holdered coins for upgrade is fine, that often works. Or just sending in PQ NGC coins raw also works. But cross-overs on nice NGC coins? The batting average is very low....and this is funny considering my standards on these coins is consistently HIGHER than PCGS and NGC....and has been since 1986.

I've never considered the holder if the coin looks right to me and is all there. And I've never had trouble selling such coins for all the money a PCGS coin would bring in the same condition. But this is my experience with type coins and not Morgan/Peace dollars. Sure, NGC has graded a lot of washed out junk. But to say that really nice NGC coins that don't cross are therefore "NOT" nice is stupid. Please, offer me all your nice, high grade NGC bust, seated, and Barber type coins that haven't crossed over to PCGS. If I like them too, I'll pay full PCGS money. Problem is....I don't see too many coins in either holder that fit this bill! 85% of my coins are NGC.

I started with NGC in 1987 since they were closer and their coins carried more weight at first. And over the years it has not made a difference yet. I avoid a lot of junk in NGC holders, but I get royally ticked-off when nice NGC coins aren't nice enough for PCGS. Politics is right! What's really funny is when NGC won't give me the higher grade on seated pieces I like, and then PCGS later upgrades them when submitted raw! Makes you wonder what's going on here. The holders tell me that in most cases the coin I am viewing has no unusual faults like art. toning or is a counterfeit. But after that, the grading is up to us to determine. Buy the coin if you agree with the holder.

roadrunner

stman · March 24, 2004 2:09PM

Roadrunner.... you've just made more sense then I've seen on here in a long time.

Russ · March 24, 2004 2:11PM

<< The Corvair was the ACG of the automobile brands >>

Bite me!

One of the coolest cars I ever owned was a 1966 Corsa. I wish I still had it, there's a HUGE collector market in Corvairs.

Russ, NCNE

oreville · March 24, 2004 2:34PM

sELL ME ALL THE ORIGINAL BLACK HOLDERED NGC SLABS!!!

Those would have no trouble selling at all!!

Donovan · March 24, 2004 2:48PM

<< The Corvair was the ACG of the automobile brands, IMHO. >>

Yes, they're unsafe at any grade.

NoGvmnt · March 24, 2004 2:51PM

<<<"1893 s au50 NGC...I had this coin trying to sell it for bid..which is unheard of for a 93s.
Not one single person had any interest in this coin.
I crossed it on the 1st try,and guys were begging for the coin.
I sold it for $4000.00 more than I was asking for in an NGC holder,and the new owner loves the coin.

I think if NGC would clean up their act and start grading in a more accurate way on Morgan and Peace dollars,this major gap would decrease..

But,if they did..and stopped over grading dollars,guys would stop sending coins to them
So ...do it right and lose money ?? or overgrade and grade faster and make money ??
You make the choice..

I just want you guys to read my comments and think before you buy the wrong holder,and can't sell the coin when that time comes,
Thanks for your comments,
Larry">>>

Wait a minute, you admit that the NGC coin crossed into a PCGS slab, but then you claim that NGC overgrades! WTF?

Then you state that you sold the "same coin" for $4,000.00 more in the PCGS plastic than what you were asking for it in the NGC plastic! So who is buying the plastic and not the coin?

Jim

NoGvmnt · March 24, 2004 2:56PM

" PCGS coins are clearly the best and anyone who tries to sell you a NGC coin is trying to cheat you. "

Isn't it hard to see with that CowPie attached to your nose?

Jim

JJacks · March 24, 2004 3:07PM

Just wanted to say I agree with Larry and with Peaceman. I have now almost completed my Peace $ set in PCGS holders and have no doubt that the coins are at the very least what the holder claims they are, and they will be at least as easy to sell for a legitimate price as if they were in anyone else's holder.

JJacks

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 3:15PM

No problem here with Corvair jokes..
I have heard them for over 30 years

My favorite is a 66 corsa..
I am not really a fan of the 60-4 style,but I make a living selling parts for them..

NoGvmnt · March 24, 2004 3:21PM

"No problem here with Corvair jokes.."

I had a brother-in-Law who stole something from me. He owned a Corvair. I stole it by shoving a filet knife in the ignition and giving it a turn. I drove it down Lake Shore Drive at 2:00am at 55 MPH and jammed it into second gear numerous times and that damned tranny would not crack. So I drove it out to the shipping canal and let it drive itself into the water. The damn thing floated, with the engine running for at least 15 minutes. After the engine finally died, the damn thing kept floating until I broke out the windows with rocks. The headlights stayed on for quite a while after it sunk to the bottom. True story.

Jim

PQpeace · March 24, 2004 3:29PM

On the au50 93s,I bought it at auction in an NGC holder.
I thought the coin was closer to a 53 than a 50.
maybe a 51.5
I crossed it to a 50 the 1st try,and tried for a 53 as soon as I got it back.
It didn't make it,so I sold it as a 50.
I knew it was a nice coin when I bought it,but could not convince any customers to purchase it because it was in the wrong holder.
Even dealers told me to put it in a PC holder and they would buy it.
I of course said...sure..and then the price will go up.
They did not want to gamble because the crossover game sometimes does not work.

They were mostly worried about resale value...and I agree.
The coin is worth $4000.00 more in a PCGS holder in today's market.

I never said that ALL NGC dollars are graded a half point higher..just a whole bunch of them.

Here is another example.

I have been looking at 84 s dollars in 60-62 for a long time.

I have looked at a bunch of NGC ones,and every single coin has major hairlines on them.
That means to me that the coin is AU,not MS.
In this same date,I have only seen 1 PCGS coin with hairlines that was in a MS holder..all the rest are in AU58 holders.
I am sure NGC just market grades that date.
Back to TV..
thanks for all your input on a very important subject,
Larry

leaving for Portland in the morning

PQpeace · March 25, 2004 2:02AM

ttt

WHY CAN'T I SELL NGC COINS ? HELP !! NGC VS PCGS COMMENTARY also !

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