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1909 1C VDB PR61 Red and Brown ANACS
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1909 1C VDB PR61 Red and Brown ANACS for sale at Heritage's September Long Beach auction
Link to Auction
PCGS Price Guide $8,500
Link to Auction
PCGS Price Guide $8,500
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Comments
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
<< <i>why does it say that it is not the lowest matte proof mintage??? >>
Cause they are using Kevin Flynn's number of 1,194 for the VDB versus 600 NOW for the 1916. Those of us who have been following MPL mintage reporting for awhile know that ALL these numbers are really just estimates based on various reporting over time. Interestingly, the Heritage website uses the historical number of 420 lower on the page near the pricing data.
The ANACS pop report DOES show ONE PR61RB in their reporting of 23 VDB MPL's. NGC has graded 0 PR61's and my PCGS PR61 was originally an ANACS PR63RB. I will be very interested to see what price this goes for. From the looks of the picture I would think it would cross to PCGS. Good luck to anyone going after it.
Steve
P.S. After some more thought I would causion anyone considering going after this coin and then wanting to cross it to PCGS to see the coin IN HAND or have a representative do so. It is critical that the three key diagnostics be identified on the coin. I cannot see them looking at the picture. I assume, with the coin in a ANACS slab, confirming the edge may also be difficult. While I believe the ANACS graders (back then) did a good job identifying MPL's including my coin, I'm sure PCGS will want to be sure it's the real thing before they cross it. I DO believe they WILL cross it and grade it IF they determine it is a real 1909VDB MPL. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Yet, there are some that donot show any of the diagnostic die marks you speak of.
I have seen your photos of the 3 major die marks that you indicate that the 1909 VDB Matte Proof must have. If that is the case, why is there a history of the type dating back to 2004 that either donot have all of the die marks or none at all?
I have read that the obverse die was used for both the1909 PLAIN matte proof and the VDB matte proof type. Would not the continual use of a die over time become fluid as to die marks, cracks, polish marks etc?
I'm no expert on the subject for sure but I would like to hear what you have to say considering your knowledgeable and astute expertise on the subject.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
As I said above, the KEY to value for this coin is whether or not the coin is a genuine 1909 VDB MPL. The diagnostics MUST appear on the coin IN HAND. You can never be sure looking at ANY picture although some pictures I have seen with close up make it look very convincing. Roger points out that if the coin hasn't crossed to PCGS by now, it never will. The assumption is the current owner would have tried BEFORE attempting to sell. This may or may not be true. An ANACS PR 63RB sold recently for big money. My PCGS PR61RB was crossed by me from an ANACS PR63RB back in 2002. If the coin is genuine, I believe PCGS will slab it. Marks on the coin can affect the grade they assign, but this variety is so rare that I believe certain spots that would have "body bagged" a regular coin at PCGS are "forgiven" for this variety by PCGS. They just will lower the grade. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>James,
As I said above, the KEY to value for this coin is whether or not the coin is a genuine 1909 VDB MPL. The diagnostics MUST appear on the coin IN HAND. You can never be sure looking at ANY picture although some pictures I have seen with close up make it look very convincing. Roger points out that if the coin hasn't crossed to PCGS by now, it never will. The assumption is the current owner would have tried BEFORE attempting to sell. This may or may not be true. An ANACS PR 63RB sold recently for big money. My PCGS PR61RB was crossed by me from an ANACS PR63RB back in 2002. If the coin is genuine, I believe PCGS will slab it. Marks on the coin can affect the grade they assign, but this variety is so rare that I believe certain spots that would have "body bagged" a regular coin at PCGS are "forgiven" for this variety by PCGS. They just will lower the grade. JMHO. Steve >>
Thank you Steve for the information. I appreciate it. As you can probably tell, I am a novice. I did collect coins when I was very young and that was long before they began grading coins using MS points for uncirculated coins and PR points for proofs. I am hoping to put together a Lincoln set for my grandson which he will have at his disposal many years from now when he decides to go to college. I just don't want him finding out that what was purchased as a genuine Matte Proof type turns out to be a common uncirculated variety.
That brings up some other questions I hope you will address.
1. Concerning the current 1909 Matte Proof Lincoln VDB that is coming up for auction, I noticed there is a link where Heritage will field questions from potential buyers. Has anyone addressed concerns about this coin with respect to the three diagnostic points that donot show up in the photo? If so what has been their response? Also, does Heritage use their own expertise to determine the type and quality of a coin going up for auction on their site or is this another one of those ebay formats where the seller is simply giving their own opinion and "Buyer Beware"?
2. My understanding from what I've read is that the obverse die of the 1909 Matte proof type was used for both the PLAIN MP type and the VDB MP type. Later the die for the PLAIN MP type was changed. Thus 2 dies were used for the obverse on the PLAIN MP type. That being the case, has anyone found or seen any examples of the 1909 PLAIN MP type that has the two diagnostic points on the obverse usually found on the VDB MP type? It would seem that if one obverse die ws used for both there would be examples out there. Also, if that is the case, would there be examples of the VDB MP type which have the same diagnostic points on the obverse that is found on the PLAIN MP type? The reason this is of interest to me is due to the relatively small sampling of certified examples in existance today considering the mintage was between 470 and 1100 depending on what resource one uses.
Since the minting of this coin in 1909 we have gone through WW1, the most terrible plague in history, The Spanish Flu in 1918, the Great Depression and WWII. It would seem to me that as a result many if not most of the examples of the 1909 VDB Matte Proof coin either was lost, thrown away, relegated to AU or uncirculated condition by unknowing individuals or simply tossed into general circulation at some point. This means that there are possibly many of these coins in individual collections improperly graded and the owner not realizing it is a matte proof and because many were displeased with it, people eventually lost interest and gave it away or used it to by a loaf of bread during the depression. Therefore, due to the small sampling currently in existance would it not be possible that there are examples of genuine 1909 Lincoln VDB matte proofs that would not fit the criteria of the 3 diagnostic points you speak of?
3. Steve, as you noted the best way to determine the type is to have the coin IN HAND. What, if any, is the most obvious point one looks for when determining if a coin such as the 1909 Lincoln is indeed a Matte Proof? Would it not be the texture of the surface of the coin? As I have read, the Lincoln matte proof surface is of a fine grainy texture instead of the usual smooth and shiny texture of a normal proof coin. Would one first look for this point before determining to look for other points? Also, I have read that since the die for the obverse was used for both the PLAIN MP type and VDB MP type that the texture on the obverse of the VDB type is of a more silky or softer texture than the heavier grainy texture found on the reverse. Is this true?
4. Finally, back to the photos of previously auctioned 1909 VDB matte proofs. The photos are high resolution and most are spectacular in detail. When one has a Hi-pixeled flat screen monitor as most of us use today those photos are very clear. In particular, there is one example that is of very nice, clean quality. It is almost absent of any spots or stains. One can clearly see very fine lines on the coin which are obvious polish marks. With that in mind, you cannot see the diagnostic, much larger polish line that runs from the shoulder to the word "LIBERTY" in this photo. If it were there it would show up as much larger than the tiny lines you can readily see in the photo. On the reverse, which is also an exceptional High resolution photo, the lighting is such that if the diagnostic point found between the word "UNUM" and the top of the wheat ears were actually present, it would be clearly visible in this photo. Then again, the coin is not IN HAND but be that as it may, what is your opinion of this particular example of the 1909 VDB matte proof type?
Thank you in advance Steve. I know this is longwinded so I hope you'll be patient.
James
When I look at an '09VDB MPL, the first thing I look at is the coin. I look at the coin and especially rim before I pull out the loupe. Then I use the loupe to look for the die lines off the nose. These are very easy to find. The die line from the shoulder to "Liberty" is hard for me to spot. I have a VDB and sometimes I can spot the line right off and other times I can't find it for the life of me. The reverse gouge off "unum" is another diagnostic that is easy for me to find. I don't need a loupe for that one.
After saying that, before I would go after one in an auction, I would hire an agent to bid for me. He can look at it and give me his opinion on how much I should bid.
Don't forget your VDB that crossed (2 grades lower) was sold at the same time as the other 63RB which DID NOT cross. You got lucky (genuine - no pun intended - congrats ) but the recent purchaser of the 63RB for 15k or so (or was it near 20?) took a bath and got stuck with a pig in a poke. The OP coin in question would be lucky to plop in a genny holder & anyone that bids it up above what THAT would be worth is throwing money down a black hole IMHO (although this MIGHT be one of the LEAST expensive ways to fill that hole in a long time & for a long time to come).
First, I want to welcome you to the PCGS coin boards. This Set Registry forum is much slower paced, with fewer participants, but is excellent for questions like the ones you are asking. The regular US coin forum is the most popular one here and has probably more than 1,000 posts a day on all coin subjects.
Second, I really don't think I'm an expert. I've collected Lincoln cents for over 25 years and obviously picked up knowledge along the way. It is also obvious to me that you are not a novice either. You know about the two 1909 Matte proof cents and the fact that the same die was used for the entire run of 1909 vdb proofs and some of the 1909 non vdb proofs.
I guess we are all learning new things about Lincoln cents all the time and I think the best way to learn more is to participate here with your questions. I would highly recommend you get the new book by Kevin Flynn called "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs". It is available on Amazon.com or thru Kyle Vick @ Stanton Books.com. Also other sources. It has a wealth of information about all nine MPL's. Also, look back at older threads right here on this forum for more information.
As to your questions, I'll try to answer some now, but hopefully others can add some more info. Heritage may or may not check this coin for diagnostics. I wouldn't count on any answer they gave because unless you know the person who you are talking with is knowledgeable about what you are asking you just might get the wrong answer.
I happen to own the 1909VDB & 1909nonVDB, both with the same obverse die. The 1909nonVDB also had 2 other obverse dies used. There are many examples out there and someone here might want to comment further.
On this forum we have discussed many times the fact that although there were 1,500 1909VDB MPL's struck and 1,194 of them sent to the coiner as being "good" only about 200 or so are believed to be in existence today. What happened to the others is all guesses. Your assumption may be part of the answer. Again, read some of the threads here.
Realize also that the hobby does not recognize a 1909VDB as a matte proof unless it has square rims AND the 3 diagnostics can be seen. If some were worn off in circulation, that may be a good reason for the quantity difference, but nobody is going to pay MPL money for that coin.
I will leave it at that for now and maybe others will also comment.
Again, welcome James.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Steve,
Don't forget your VDB that crossed (2 grades lower) was sold at the same time as the other 63RB which DID NOT cross. You got lucky (genuine - no pun intended - congrats ) but the recent purchaser of the 63RB for 15k or so (or was it near 20?) took a bath and got stuck with a pig in a poke. The OP coin in question would be lucky to plop in a genny holder & anyone that bids it up above what THAT would be worth is throwing money down a black hole IMHO (although this MIGHT be one of the LEAST expensive ways to fill that hole in a long time & for a long time to come). >>
Roger,
I know for a fact that the other ANACS 63RB sold in September, 2002 and was NOT in my auction which sold in April, 2002. That coin did sell for $19k in March of this year as an ANACS 63RB. I guess we will see what happens. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
YOURS was 4/27/02 for $1,955 ( !!!)
&
the other one was 9/28/02 for $4,255 (& again on 3/27/09 for $19,500) .
Sorry. I thought they sold around the same time & was too tied up to look up the exact particulars.
<< <i>James,
First, I want to welcome you to the PCGS coin boards. This Set Registry forum is much slower paced, with fewer participants, but is excellent for questions like the ones you are asking. The regular US coin forum is the most popular one here and has probably more than 1,000 posts a day on all coin subjects.
Second, I really don't think I'm an expert. I've collected Lincoln cents for over 25 years and obviously picked up knowledge along the way. It is also obvious to me that you are not a novice either. You know about the two 1909 Matte proof cents and the fact that the same die was used for the entire run of 1909 vdb proofs and some of the 1909 non vdb proofs.
I guess we are all learning new things about Lincoln cents all the time and I think the best way to learn more is to participate here with your questions. I would highly recommend you get the new book by Kevin Flynn called "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs". It is available on Amazon.com or thru Kyle Vick @ Stanton Books.com. Also other sources. It has a wealth of information about all nine MPL's. Also, look back at older threads right here on this forum for more information.
As to your questions, I'll try to answer some now, but hopefully others can add some more info. Heritage may or may not check this coin for diagnostics. I wouldn't count on any answer they gave because unless you know the person who you are talking with is knowledgeable about what you are asking you just might get the wrong answer.
I happen to own the 1909VDB & 1909nonVDB, both with the same obverse die. The 1909nonVDB also had 2 other obverse dies used. There are many examples out there and someone here might want to comment further.
On this forum we have discussed many times the fact that although there were 1,500 1909VDB MPL's struck and 1,194 of them sent to the coiner as being "good" only about 200 or so are believed to be in existence today. What happened to the others is all guesses. Your assumption may be part of the answer. Again, read some of the threads here.
Realize also that the hobby does not recognize a 1909VDB as a matte proof unless it has square rims AND the 3 diagnostics can be seen. If some were worn off in circulation, that may be a good reason for the quantity difference, but nobody is going to pay MPL money for that coin.
I will leave it at that for now and maybe others will also comment.
Again, welcome James.
Steve
>>
Thanks Steve for your timely and excellent answers. As for the point I mentioned about the obverse die being used on both types (VDB and non-VDB), I read that right here in this forum just two days ago so I wouldn't wish to take credit for anything that someone else posted but I'll accept the compliment anyway.
Take care my friend and again thanks
james
<< <i>
<< <i>why does it say that it is not the lowest matte proof mintage??? >>
Cause they are using Kevin Flynn's number of 1,194 for the VDB versus 600 NOW for the 1916. Those of us who have been following MPL mintage reporting for awhile know that ALL these numbers are really just estimates based on various reporting over time. Interestingly, the Heritage website uses the historical number of 420 lower on the page near the pricing data.
The ANACS pop report DOES show ONE PR61RB in their reporting of 23 VDB MPL's. NGC has graded 0 PR61's and my PCGS PR61 was originally an ANACS PR63RB. I will be very interested to see what price this goes for. From the looks of the picture I would think it would cross to PCGS. Good luck to anyone going after it.
Steve
P.S. After some more thought I would causion anyone considering going after this coin and then wanting to cross it to PCGS to see the coin IN HAND or have a representative do so. It is critical that the three key diagnostics be identified on the coin. I cannot see them looking at the picture. I assume, with the coin in a ANACS slab, confirming the edge may also be difficult. While I believe the ANACS graders (back then) did a good job identifying MPL's including my coin, I'm sure PCGS will want to be sure it's the real thing before they cross it. I DO believe they WILL cross it and grade it IF they determine it is a real 1909VDB MPL. JMHO. Steve >>
I e-mailed them and asked them about the points you brought up concerning whether this coin was a true MPL.
Here is the reply I received:
"Thank you for your inquiry. I cataloged this lot, and I just examined it, as did Chief Cataloger Mark van Winkle.
At the angle at which the images were taken, the diagnostics do not appear, but when the coin is tilted under the light, they are present. Strongest is the die polish at Lincoln's nose; the line off Lincoln's coat is weaker but still visible. On the reverse, careful observation is required, but the small crescent-shaped element also appears at the proper angle.
Both the Chief Cataloger and I are comfortable with believing this piece to be a genuine matte proof 1909 VDB cent, if one that was perhaps struck from a later die state than usually seen.
Sincerely,
John Beety, Numismatic Cataloger"
The response seems honest. Sometimes, employees might respond with "canned" answers, but everything said here seems logical.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
This look like a coin that needs to be seen in person. Fortunately Brian and I will both be there to inspect it.
James,
If you are reading this thread I suggest you set-up your private message (PM) ability within your profile. You have made 7 very interesting posts so far with 5 within this thread and 2 on the coin forum. You will find that technical questions are best answered via PM or possibly here. They can get lost real quickly on the US Coin Forum. I saw you latest post ONLY because I was subscribing to the thread.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
1857 Flying Eagle Conservation Thread w/ Pics
If someone like NCS could so similar magic to this 1909 VDB matte someone could either get a decent matte VDB cheap here or could probably make some money flipping this one. Either way, those spots look like they may be causing damage to the coin and an attempt at conservation should be made.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
"While the 1909 VDB is not the lowest-mintage matte proof Lincoln cent,..."
<< <i>Why does Heritage state that:
"While the 1909 VDB is not the lowest-mintage matte proof Lincoln cent,..." >>
Roger,
Look at the second post in this thread. Then look at the fourth post in this thread.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Thanks!
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Let me pose my question here.
I read elsewhere that the 1909 MPL NON vdb is found with the same diagnostic points on the obverse as is found on the VDB MPL. It was also stated that a second die was also used for the 1909 MPL NON vdb and the major diagnostic point being a die crack leading from the truncation of Lincoln's bust to the edge of the coin. It mentioned two other minor points such as polish marks which may or may not appear along Lincoln's nose and some other minor polish lines found near the letters "TY" in the word "LIBERTY".
Would it be possible for someone to post a Hi-res photo of the 1909 MPL non vdb that includes the second obverse die-type? ( the die crack that leads from truncation of Lincoln's bust to the edge of the coin)
Thanks-
james
Per Leonard Albrecht's 1982 article writen about the diagnostics of Lincoln cent Matte proof cents (1909-1916) here is what he says about the 1909 non-VDB Matte proof cent.
Same surface characteristics as 1909-VDB. Some late die states seem to have more of a satin finish.
Obverse 1: Same obverse die as 1909-VDB
Reverse A: Die chips at 3 and 9 o'clock, between wheat grains and rim.
Obverse 2: Die crack under Lincoln's bust. Short die gouges above L in LIBERTY. Die polish by TY in LIBERTY.
Reverse B: Heavy die polish by O in ONE. Die polish by T in CENT and under CA in AMERICA.
Obverse 3: Heavy die polish to right of nose.
In addition to these words, Albrecht provided a number of detail black and white pictures in the article. This article was included in books published by the ANA later. You should try to get your hands on it. I have a copy of this booklet from which I'm quoting. If you really look back on threads in this forum you will find some pictures posted, I believe.
I should also mention that Kevin Flynn has listed diagnostics more extensive than Albrecht in his books on the subject in 1996 and 2009 but I have not found anything thru the years that disproves what Albrecht said in his writings in 1982. So, at this time I believe there were 3 obverse dies used in making the 1909 non VDB MPL and 2 reverse dies used in making the 1909 non VDB MPL.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I have dealt in rare and modern first edition books for many years and one of the most favorite sites I've used since 1995 is ABEBOOKS. It lists used and rare books from thousands of book dealers from all over the world. Many times you can find the book you are looking for at a drastically reduced price then what you would pay for an unused new copy. Many times the used copies are in "like new" condition.
I've done a quick check and many of the books that have been recommended to the novice coin collector are available in used condition at reduced prices.
Now if one is looking for a rare first edition of any of Hemingways books, expect to pay a bundle for them.
Here is the link for anyone interested:
ABEBOOKS
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I have little doubt it's destined for a genny though.
Edited to add: assuming it would cross.
<< <i>I bid $6,522 ($7,500.30 w/the juice). Congrats to the winner.
I have little doubt it's destined for a genny though. >>
anyone know where this one ended up?
If some of the less rare Matte Proof Lincoln cents have gotten a little "soft" recently, the rarer dates certainly have not. VDB auctions still generate strong prices and 1915 and 1916 examples do well too. The higher grades of all the dates generally still do well with the possible exception of the 1913.
Pound for pound the MPLs should generate high prices considering the extremely low populations and the popularity of Lincoln cents in general. I think the problem holding back prices is that most Lincoln collectors just don't bother with the matte proofs. They are probably put off by the cost and the commitment to 6 expensive coins, 2 very expensive coins and 1 astronomical coin.
If you happen to be a lucky owner of a VDB, consider yourself a member of a very elite group.
Thanks for bringing this thread back. I enjoyed rereading the comments that were made right at the peak of the MPL excitement during the summer of 2009. By doing what you are doing you can relive the excitement that occurred here then. I also note that my comments then were more direct and explicit in detail than what I can recall now. We all get up in age I guess. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry