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Important discovery shown at Central States
EagleEye
Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
Jack Beymer discovered an astoundingly weird variety. Undoubtedly genuine and a real head-scratcher!
It's a 1858 Seated Libery quarter with clash marks on both the obverse and the reverse from the reverse die of a Large cent!
The obverse shows the clash on the right side only and the reverse die shows the clash on the right side only. It is only evident in the field areas and is a backward impression of the design, just as it should be. I'll post images ASAP.
It's a 1858 Seated Libery quarter with clash marks on both the obverse and the reverse from the reverse die of a Large cent!
The obverse shows the clash on the right side only and the reverse die shows the clash on the right side only. It is only evident in the field areas and is a backward impression of the design, just as it should be. I'll post images ASAP.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
https://thepennylady.com/
Cool find!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>If this is the only example isn't it just a fluke instead of a variety? >>
A deliberate 'made to order' fluke at that....I'm sure it's worth a lot to someone, but not to me - more of an interesting conversation
piece.
Lance.
(edited for horizontal flip of the cent reverse, not vertical)
<< <i>The orientation of the dies is top-to-top on the obverse and top-to-bottom on the reverse. The overlay orientation ikeigwin posted would be for the reverse die, showing the upside-down T in the field. The obverse shows a backwards O. >>
Gotcha. Fixed.
Lance.
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
about that coin looks wrong to me. In particular, the 'ICA' in AMERICA appears to be slightly flattened or damaged.
If this is the only example that shows up, I would be more inclined to call it post-strike damage than clashing.
<< <i>With the caveat that authenticating from an image can be more of a guess than grading from an image, something
about that coin looks wrong to me. In particular, the 'ICA' in AMERICA appears to be slightly flattened or damaged.
If this is the only example that shows up, I would be more inclined to call it post-strike damage than clashing. >>
That would be an impressive feat to be able to fake the above pictured coin. Note that the large cent reverse details are not seen on the devices of lady liberty.
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
This appears to be a much more severe die clash than the 1857 clashed w/ Indian cent.
This die clash appears to be a much more severe than the 1857 quarter clashed w/ Indian cent.
<< <i>Note that the large cent reverse details are not seen on the devices of lady liberty. >>
I saw the coin in hand today and noticed that as well. The clash is seen only in the fields (a microscope might reveal more but I did not see it with a glass).
<< <i>If I didn't trust your expertise, judging by the pics, I'd have said it was a vice job - however seeing it in hand could have proved differently.
This die clash appears to be a much more severe than the 1857 quarter clashed w/ Indian cent. >>
From the images, this could not have been done as a vice job. Both the devices of the quarter and the large cent that WOULD HAVE BEEN USED FOR A VICE JOB, would have had the greatest pressure exerted on each other. Since we do not see the details of the large cent reverse impressed into seated liberty, a vice job is not a possible reason. There are also other reasons, just from looking at the photos why it could not have been a vice job.
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
He has a cert slip from NGC that says PMD... but it is clearly not the case.
He told me it was found with a great deal of crud in all of the recesses by an associate. When "cleaned up", jaws promptly dropped.
Fascinating piece, and needs to be certified.
Don't fret too much about the graders getting it wrong. Remember these are a bunch of guys that often can't tell the difference between hairlines and die polish marks.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
it would take effort to clash both obverse and reverse with the same large cent die, no?
maybe in 1859 a mint police officer was criminally charged with smuggling mint errors out.....
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
There is flattening on the obverse (stars & Liberty's legs), and on the reverse (denticles, "AMERICA", and arrows). Additional damage can be seen on the denticles at 2 o'clock on the reverse. I wouldn't feel very confident calling it a genuine error with these features.
Has Fred Weinberg or Mike Diamond seen this piece?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I believe Jack sent me this coin a few years ago, and I did not
think it was a genuine error or die clash.
As mentioned above, the surfaces are off, and I really don't like
the area on the right side of the reverse - warped displaced lettering
and denticles.
I can't explain it, but I just don't think it's the real thing;
as Bill Fivaz is famously quoted for saying about an altered coin:
"I wasn't there when it was made"
(i.e; so I can't tell you exactly how it was made)
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
a few years ago.
I didn't feel it was a genuine die clash.
As mentioned in previous posts, the surfaces
of the coin are 'off' (wavy in parts), and I also
don't like the right side of the reverse where
the "America" lettering, and denticles are.....
I can't explain exactly how it was made, but
as Bill Fivaz is famous for saying about pieces
he's shown that are not errors:
"I wasn't there when it was made, so I can't
tell you exactly how it was done"
I'm ready to stand corrected, but at a minimum,
it certainly doesn't pass the smell test to my eyes.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
thread, and neither post has show up.....
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>Hmm...I've replied twice this morning to this
thread, and neither post has show up..... >>
Frequently happens with the software. I've been seeing this since mid-December. Sometimes I've had to wait up to an hour to see my post show up.
<< <i>I believe Jack sent me this coin to examine
a few years ago.
I didn't feel it was a genuine die clash.
As mentioned in previous posts, the surfaces
of the coin are 'off' (wavy in parts), and I also
don't like the right side of the reverse where
the "America" lettering, and denticles are.....
I can't explain exactly how it was made, but
as Bill Fivaz is famous for saying about pieces
he's shown that are not errors:
"I wasn't there when it was made, so I can't
tell you exactly how it was done"
I'm ready to stand corrected, but at a minimum,
it certainly doesn't pass the smell test to my eyes. >>
I'm with you, Fred.
Other than being struck by counterfeit dies (which is possible), I don't know how it was made. But I just don't think it is "right".
<< <i>I'm ready to stand corrected, but at a minimum,
it certainly doesn't pass the smell test to my eyes. >>
Synesthesia and error authentication.
Thanks for your opinion, Fred.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>Hmm...I've replied twice this morning to this
thread, and neither post has show up..... >>
There is a glitch in the forum software. When you posted the first time pages 1 and 2 were full so your first post started page 3, but because the software was ignoring somebody else's post or two the software said to itself "Self, page 2 isn't full yet, so don't be showing page 3 yet!"
You can overcome this by going to the last page showing in the thread, looking at the address line at the top of the screen which shows the page number of the thread, clicking after the end of the thread and increasing the page number by one (such as from 2 to 3 or 19 to 20) and clicking on "GO."
TD
1) The coin is out-of-round being 24.18 mm +/- measured from 12:00 to -6:00 O'clock and 24.36 mm +/- measured from 3:00 to 9:00 O'clock. This might be normal for the era and fact the coin is circulated. Also, if the individual dies clashed into a Large cent reverse die (which is a larger diameter die, they (quarter dies) could have spread it tiny bit due to the benefit of a sloppy collar. All conjecture on my part.
2) It is of correct weight at 6.2 +/-.
3) The stars and Miss Liberty's foot on the right side of the obverse are weak, while the designs corresponding to these on the left side of the coin are strong. The Large cent die being set at a slight tilt (vertically misaligned) may help explain this though it is pure conjecture. Additionally, the shut-height (spacing) between dies is increased ever so slightly after a clash. The clash being mainly restricted to the right side on the obverse and reverse would create a slightly wider shut-height on the right side of the coin. An increase in shut height on the right side could cause a weaker strike on that side. All pure conjecture.
4) The word AMERICA seems tilted inward on a slope that I can't explain. However, the fact the large cent die is larger and that the quarter die and was apparently shifted (horizontally misaligned) to the left in relation to the Large cent die may have played a part in this. Again, pure conjecture.
5) The reverse die shows a lot of pitting inside and around all the devises as does the obverse to a lesser degree. This may have been rust on the dies but I would think the spikes on the coin would have worn away to a degree that they wouldn't be so apparent.
6) There is no evidence of buckling in the field and design areas were there are no clash marks, contrary to what other observers have suggested in the past.
Images Copyright Ken Potter 2015.
<< <i>Here are images of this coin. They are dark and of high saturation due to me shooting with low lighting and a show shutter speed to highlight the clash marks. I make no assessment at this time. You be the judge.
1) The coin is out-of-round being 24.18 mm +/- measured from 12:00 to -6:00 O'clock and 24.36 mm +/- measured from 3:00 to 9:00 O'clock. This might be normal for the era and fact the coin is circulated. Also, if the individual dies clashed into a Large cent reverse die (which is a larger diameter die, they (quarter dies) could have spread it tiny bit due to the benefit of a sloppy collar. All conjecture on my part.
2) It is of correct weight at 6.2 +/-.
3) The stars and Miss Liberty's foot on the right side of the obverse are weak, while the designs corresponding to these on the left side of the coin are strong. The Large cent die being set at a slight tilt (vertically misaligned) may help explain this though it is pure conjecture. Additionally, the shut-height (spacing) between dies is increased ever so slightly after a clash. The clash being mainly restricted to the right side on the obverse and reverse would create a slightly wider shut-height on the right side of the coin. An increase in shut height on the right side could cause a weaker strike on that side. All pure conjecture.
4) The word AMERICA seems tilted inward on a slope that I can't explain. However, the fact the large cent die is larger and that the quarter die and was apparently shifted (horizontally misaligned) to the left in relation to the Large cent die may have played a part in this. Again, pure conjecture.
5) The reverse die shows a lot of pitting inside and around all the devises as does the obverse to a lesser degree. This may have been rust on the dies but I would think the spikes on the coin would have worn away to a degree that they wouldn't be so apparent.
6) There is no evidence of buckling in the field and design areas were there are no clash marks, contrary to what other observers have suggested in the past.
Images Copyright Ken Potter 2015. >>
I see your making your rounds Mr. Potter, good to see you Ken ... Richard Stachowski
I would like to examine the edges. Does the reed count match the quarters of that date, for example?
Without seeing the coin in hand, I cannot definitively say. But I am strongly leaning toward counterfeit dies that were clashed by the counterfeiter prior to striking this coin.
I do think it is a very cool study piece.