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1831 Large Cent with reverse tripling - Question
dadams
Posts: 376 ✭✭✭
Yep, I've been lurking a while and learned much from reading everyone's postings. Figure it's time to step up and interact with the forum and so without further ado . . .
Recently I had this 1831 Large Cent imaged for me and the photographer mentioned he noticed some tripling and doubling on the reverse. I have not practiced my eye towards looking for doubling/tripling with a loupe, but the images certainly make it stand out. You can see tripling at the leaves and some doubling in the motto. I am wondering if this is simply strike chatter or if this a known attribute that leads to a variety? Further to attribution, I seem rather lost as 1) I don't have the needed reference books 2) I have never attributed a variety and 3) many of the varieties all look the same to me. I've been viewing images and notes from the Goldberg sale of The Dan Holmes Collection of U.S. Large Cents Here and quite honestly am a bit overwhelmed with zero progress. I would much appreciate any thoughts.
Recently I had this 1831 Large Cent imaged for me and the photographer mentioned he noticed some tripling and doubling on the reverse. I have not practiced my eye towards looking for doubling/tripling with a loupe, but the images certainly make it stand out. You can see tripling at the leaves and some doubling in the motto. I am wondering if this is simply strike chatter or if this a known attribute that leads to a variety? Further to attribution, I seem rather lost as 1) I don't have the needed reference books 2) I have never attributed a variety and 3) many of the varieties all look the same to me. I've been viewing images and notes from the Goldberg sale of The Dan Holmes Collection of U.S. Large Cents Here and quite honestly am a bit overwhelmed with zero progress. I would much appreciate any thoughts.
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Looks like an N12, die state A, R1 - nice example, though possibly cleaned a long time ago.
To add, I'm going to assume all examples of the N12 have this tripling, so as an R1 with quite a few highgrade examples
known, I don't think it adds any premium.
Now if this was a late die state 'harpooned whale' in this grade, you'd have a heckuva coin!
It is my understanding that in this time period the dies were made by sinking the wreath first and then adding the lettering one letter at a time.
Note the doubling on the N of UNITED. If we assume that the wreath was tripled when it was entered into the die blank, then that tripling should not affect the lettering. Of course you could have two coincidental re-entry doublings and/or triplings, but since Noyes does not mention we must assume that this is simple machine doubling.
TD
early die state. The leaf tripling, I believe, is die bounce &
not evident on most examples.
This die pair is on it's way to a later terminal state when
S-12 & S-13 develop a large cud called "The Harpooned Whale"
as was stated earlier.
Try to obtain some books on large cents, or some auction
catalogs that discuss varieties in their write-ups.
Sometimes these middle series Lg Cents can be difficult to
attribute but have fun with it.
I've just got to start typing faster!!
R.I.P. Bear
<< <i>many of the varieties all look the same to me. I've been viewing images and notes from the Goldberg sale of The Dan Holmes Collection of U.S. Large Cents Here and quite honestly am a bit overwhelmed with zero progress. I would much appreciate any thoughts. >>
I also used auction catalogs for a long time when checking varieties.
Until you get copies of Noyes, Sheldon, Newcomb, etc., key things to look for to help narrow coins down are die breaks, date placement, number size, and number spacing, star placement relative to the coronet, the letter positions in LIBERTY, and on the reverse, besides die breaks, check letter size and placement relative to each other and to the wreath leaves and berries.
In this case, the 1831 has a number of varieties with obv die breaks, but only two (I think) with breaks through the bottom of the stars 2 - 6.
Also note the T in LIBERTY, it sits abnormally low relative to the other letters. The date has the first 1 fairly wide to the left, and the 8 is well spaced from the 3.
On the reverse, the final S is STATES lines right up with the wreath leaves at 12 o'clock, and the base (feet) of the A in STATES nearly touches the feet of the adjacent letters, same for the A and M in AMERICA.
Remember that obverse dies were pared with different reverse dies, and vice versa - so nailing down one side is a start, but you need to confirm both sides to be sure.
It takes a lot of practice and patience, so treat it like doing puzzles. The late dates in general are very difficult, as the differences are subtle.
Many of the very early dates are hard, as there are so darn many of them, and the 'pedestrian' coins that most of us can afford are usually pretty worn and damaged.
Good luck and have fun!
I viewed some examples of "The Harpooned Whale" variety and I myself don't particularly care for the huge cud, but I see where many may find it interesting. Being able to trace the paired dies and stages those dies go through as they are used is somewhat fascinating and I respect all the guys able to do that. I have a long way to go.
There are many idiosyncrasies of coinage that I still am trying to grasp and Attribution is one. I only own a couple of large cents at this juncture, but should I continue to acquire more I do see the need and usefulness of the related reference materials.
Thanks again!!!
-Doug