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Let's talk turkey - Contemporary Counterfeits, especially Bust Silver (Half-Dimes and Dimes)
STONE
Posts: 15,275 ✭
Some of my numismatic interests involve early Bust Coinage, especially those emphasizing Bust Halves.
I find the design both artistically beautiful (Flowing Hair, Draped, and Capped Bust types, with equally varying reverses), and historically important.
The series provides a challenge when collecting a date set, and even more of a challenge when looking for Overton varieties.
In my pursuance of CBH's, I felt that it was necessary to have both authentic Philadelphia minted examples as well as at least one Contemporary Counterfeit.
Having both provides a nice balance and allows me to travel back to this time to understand that 50c was really a good deal of money back then, and that
countefeiting a coin like this would be a nice boost in pay - if you get away with your escapade!
I was also reading Steve Tompkins recent publication of "Early United States Quarters" and noticed that several dates have known counterfeits.
I suspect many/most of those listed in his book are Contemporary to the period, and not 20th century reproductions, none the least being those from the Orient!
This then got me wondering about Bust Dimes and Bust Half-Dimes, and their history, if any, to contemporary counterfeits of these two denominations.
10c and 5c wasn't near as much as 50c, but was still enough to buy items if you created a quantity of these counterfeits.
So, does anybody know of, have, or seen contemporary counterfeits of these two denominations, and if so would you please share images or information about these coins?
(If information about contemporary counterfeits are talked about in either the Bust Dime or Bust Half-Dime publications, then I apologize, I don't have either of these books)
Among other contemporary counterfeits, I was surprised to read that Three Cent Silver and Three Cent Nickel pieces were counterfeited, but Two Cent Pieces don't seem to have ever been!
And, I don't think I've read that any contemporary counterfeit Twenty Cent pieces were created, but I'm sure Astrorat or other board members can clear this up.
So, tell me what you know about Contemporary Counterfeits (any denomination is fine; lets pass on Chinese fakes for now), as this is a great part of numismatics to know about.
Here's a neat list of contemporary counterfeit Seated Dimes on Gerry Fortin's website: Counterfeit Seated Dimes
I find the design both artistically beautiful (Flowing Hair, Draped, and Capped Bust types, with equally varying reverses), and historically important.
The series provides a challenge when collecting a date set, and even more of a challenge when looking for Overton varieties.
In my pursuance of CBH's, I felt that it was necessary to have both authentic Philadelphia minted examples as well as at least one Contemporary Counterfeit.
Having both provides a nice balance and allows me to travel back to this time to understand that 50c was really a good deal of money back then, and that
countefeiting a coin like this would be a nice boost in pay - if you get away with your escapade!
I was also reading Steve Tompkins recent publication of "Early United States Quarters" and noticed that several dates have known counterfeits.
I suspect many/most of those listed in his book are Contemporary to the period, and not 20th century reproductions, none the least being those from the Orient!
This then got me wondering about Bust Dimes and Bust Half-Dimes, and their history, if any, to contemporary counterfeits of these two denominations.
10c and 5c wasn't near as much as 50c, but was still enough to buy items if you created a quantity of these counterfeits.
So, does anybody know of, have, or seen contemporary counterfeits of these two denominations, and if so would you please share images or information about these coins?
(If information about contemporary counterfeits are talked about in either the Bust Dime or Bust Half-Dime publications, then I apologize, I don't have either of these books)
Among other contemporary counterfeits, I was surprised to read that Three Cent Silver and Three Cent Nickel pieces were counterfeited, but Two Cent Pieces don't seem to have ever been!
And, I don't think I've read that any contemporary counterfeit Twenty Cent pieces were created, but I'm sure Astrorat or other board members can clear this up.
So, tell me what you know about Contemporary Counterfeits (any denomination is fine; lets pass on Chinese fakes for now), as this is a great part of numismatics to know about.
Here's a neat list of contemporary counterfeit Seated Dimes on Gerry Fortin's website: Counterfeit Seated Dimes
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Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>You have likely heard of and probably own Contemporary Counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollars by Keith Davignon, but if you don't have this book then it is one you would enjoy very much. >>
I've been meaning to pick it up
<< <i>And, I don't think I've read that any contemporary counterfeit Twenty Cent pieces were created, but I'm sure Astrorat or other board members can clear this up. >>
I have read secondary literature reports of contemporary counterfeit twenty-cent pieces appearing in 1876 (Willem's book on Trade dollars), but was unable to verify the report in the primary literature. Nonetheless, I am little reason to doubt that contemporary counterfeits were indeed made.
The only counterfeits I have examined have been modern pieces struck from spark-erosion dies.
More commonly, twenty-cent pieces were altered to be passed as quarters by either scratching out the "TWENTY" on the reverse or by adding "reeding" to the edge to simulate the reeds on a quarter. While the latter may seem odd, it actually worked quite well. When teaching numismatics at UT-Austin, I did experiments with the class where they held a "reeded" twenty-cent piece and an unaltered twenty-cent piece behind their backs and tried to guess which was the "quarter." They always chose the "reeded" twenty-cent piece. I also had them try and distinguish between a "reeded" twenty-cent piece and a real quarter...it was almost a 50-50 guess. Thus, going on just the feel of the coin, the fake reeding worked to trick the holder.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>You have likely heard of and probably own Contemporary Counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollars by Keith Davignon, but if you don't have this book then it is one you would enjoy very much. >>
I've been meaning to pick it up
It's a great book...
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Among other contemporary counterfeits, I was surprised to read that Three Cent Silver and Three Cent Nickel pieces were counterfeited, but Two Cent Pieces don't seem to have ever been!
And, I don't think I've read that any contemporary counterfeit Twenty Cent pieces were created, but I'm sure Astrorat or other board members can clear this up. >>
I can only speculate that making a counterfeit two cents piece would require more metal and yield less spendable face value than making a counterfeit three cents piece.
Have not seen a contemporary counterfeit twenty cents piece. I have seen an 1875 with the mint mark removed that was numismatically acquired in the late 1940's.
Don't forget the 1848 small date cent! And, years ago, I saw a picture in Collectors Clearinghouse of a circulated 1921 Lincoln cent struck from hand cut dies.
TD
NOT" removed from the legend "NOT ONE CENT?"
TD
<< <i>And what about circulating Civil War tokens that had the word
NOT" removed from the legend "NOT ONE CENT?"
TD >>
TD,
I know I'm forgetting several denominations, but I only touched on those which seemed unusual for their surroundings (Bust Dime/Half-Dime; Two Cent and Twenty Cent)
I know that there are several counterfeit Large Cents, IHC's, and Wheat Cents out there, not to mention CWT's.
My main purpose of this post is to garner any information about contemporary counterfeit Bust Dimes and Half-Dimes; Seated Half-Dime counterfeits would also be neat to see!
I could not find any images of either of these two contemporary counterfeit types, but was able to indirectly confirm that there is at least one 1830 Bust Half-Dime counterfeit.
I'm not able to confirm the whereabouts or other dates of known contemporary counterfeit Bust Half-Dimes/Dimes, but my searching will continue, and I will report back if I find anything.
Does anyone know, off-hand, if the ANA or ANS has any contemporary counterfeits of either these coins? Would I be able to contact either organization to ask about this?
Like yourself, I have had a longstanding interest in contemporary counterfeit half dimes, but have found that there are precious few of them in existence. I recall several years ago I located an example of a cast counterfeit Capped Bust half dime and discussed it with Russ Logan, who had amassed a large collection of counterfeit Bust coinage. He wanted to see it, and agreed to send me his lone example of a cast counterfeit Capped Bust half dime in return. His example was very poorly made, and had seen extensive circulation (as most counterfeits did). As I carefully slid his coin out of the flip for inspection, I was horrified when the coin broke in two pieces in my hand. I was mortified! I had destroyed Russ Logan's only example of a cast counterfeit Capped Bust half dime. What was I to do? I reluctantly called Russ to report how I had inadvertently 'destroyed' his rare coin, convinced that I would forever be persona non grata in numismatic circles once word of my stupidity hit the grapevine. I asked Russ what I should do, and he replied "Why don't you use Super Glue. That is what I do whenever that happens".
Over the years I have acquired several examples of contemporary counterfeit half dimes, plus a few examples that I believe to be slightly more modern contrivances. For the Capped Bust half dimes I have examples of an 1830 LM-7/V7 and the 1832 LM-5/V8. It is important to note that these are all cast counterfeits, made in a sand mold from an original host coin. Accordingly, it is often possible, depending upon the relative condition, to actually attribute the host coin from the counterfeit. My experience has been that these cast counterfeits are typically quite easy to identify as counterfeits, despite the fact that they were cast in molds made from authentic coins. The molds were filled with very fine sand, which was compressed around the host coin to make an impression. Then, molten metal (often called 'German silver', but actually containing no precious metal) was poured into the mold, making a cast copy of the original. Despite their best efforts, the counterfeiters were not able to recreate the same surfaces of an authentic coin, as the fields and other flat surfaces of the cast coins exhibited the granular character of the sand, often looking like porousity. Also, when the molds were opened to extract the cast coin, often the surfaces of the sand mold were inadvertently 'dented', leaving tell-tale raised lumps on subsequent coins. Accordingly, they are rarely mistaken for the real thing by modern collectors, but certainly were passed in commerce and often saw considerable circulation.
I also have two examples of the 1795 LM-10/V4 Flowing Hair half dime which are insidious and very deceptive counterfeits because they were die struck using dies made from the spark erosion process. It is my understanding that these were made in the middle of the twentieth century, and there appear to be a great many of them in the marketplace. Fortunately, the dies were made using a genuine 1795 LM-10/V4 in late die state, with the diagnostic cud at TY on the obverse. Accordingly, whenever you see any 1795 Flowing Hair half dime with that obverse cud at TY, a giant red flag should go up. Certainly not all 1795 LM-10/V4 half dimes are bogus, but many are, and they are very difficult to identify. I have found that appearance and even weight (mass) are not always sufficient to identify these counterfeits. A specific gravity test is imperative for any definitive identification. In recent years I have positively identified two die struck counterfeits, each in AU grade, in the hands of knowledgable dealers who were duped by their quality.
I also have a few contemporary counterfeit Liberty Seated half dimes which are amusing if not deceptive. One is an 1871, which is a cast counterfeit of dubious quality and not very convincing. The other is a personal favorite, with almost childlike artwork suggesting that the counterfeiter made his own molds while lacking even fundamental artistic skills. But his greatest error was in using the 1874-O date and mintmark! Of course, the half dimes were discontinued in 1873, but he apparently did not know that.
I recall several years ago at a New England Numismatic Association (NENA) show, in Marlboro, MA, the JRCS held a regional meeting and we invited Keith Davignon (the author of "Contemporary Counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollars") to make a presentation on contemporary counterfeits. He gave a fascinating presentation, in which he mentioned one particularly prolific group of counterfeiters who defied detection. The Secret Service could not seem to locate their place of operation until one day, in 1846, they located them working out of a cave in West Paris, Maine, perhaps 30 miles from where I live.
I also have numerous counterfeit coins from many different United States coin series, including an 1861 3-cent silver and an 1875-S 20 cent piece, but I have no idea when they might have been made (Unless this is being read by the Treasury Department, for which I will deny any knowledge of the above).
Would love to see the contemporary bogus 1795's!!
Please tell us more.
<< <i>Anyone remember the bay area,or bay counterfeits? >>
These were generally or exclusively Draped Bust Large Cents with phenomenal surfaces.
I know that the 1802 date is a popular type.
and never heard anything about them since.
Stone has part of it right.I think there's more to the story than I remember.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Someone (and I ask forgiveness because I don't remember who it was) showed a contemporary counterfeit 20c piece at one of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club meetings this year. A very cool counterfeit. I don't remember which meeting either, FUN, Portland or Baltimore? Any other attendees recall this? >>
MrHalfDime (Steve C.) mentions at the end of his long reply of having one! Could this possibly be who/what you are referring to? (Just trying to help
No, I do not recall ever showing that piece at a national show, but would be glad to if there is interest.
" .... at the end of his long reply"
Long? (Just trying to help
if you get a chance to buy die struck contemporaty cfs of bust half-dimes & dimes, BUY THEM
K S