Some Brazilian 960R's

mnemtsas2 · March 12, 2012 9:33AM

I got these out of a recent auction in Melbourne, Australia. I wasn't able to view them in person so got a collecting friend to look at them for me to check if they had any problems before I bid on them. I was lucky enough to be able to identify the host coins of 4 out of 7 of these coins which is a pretty amazing hit rate for me because I usually struggle greatly with that task.

1811R 960R

1813R 960R, dipped. Host coin is Peru 1807JP 8 Reale and was either porous or chopmarked

1813R 960R. Host coin Peru 1808JP 8 Reale

1816R 960R. Host coin Peru 1788IJ 8 Reale

1817R 960R. Host coin Mexico 1808TH 8 Reale

1818R 960R. Host coin is Spanish Colonial 8 Reale, 180?, Ferdinand VII. No visible mintmark or assayer.

1819R 960R. I suspect the host coin was struck off-center. There's also a number of contemporary scratches.

Zohar · March 12, 2012 10:09AM

Very nice!

harasha · March 12, 2012 10:26AM

Is the old "You suck" acclamation still acceptable?
Otherwise,

This series is one of my original favorites!

TwoKopeiki · March 12, 2012 11:05AM

Who doesn't like a nice 960 Reis over-strike?

JCMhouston · March 12, 2012 11:44AM

That first coin is especially lovely.

960Coins · April 25, 2012 11:40PM

Very nice purchases. You got a few interesting varieties there:

#1 ("1811R")
This is actually an 1811B, which was struck in fewer quantities than any other Colonial Bahia-struck 960 Reis coin, usually meaning it's worth about 20% more than what another common Colonial Bahia 960 would be worth.

#2 ("1813R 960R, dipped. Host coin is Peru 1807JP 8 Reale")
It's too bad the reverse is the way it is, it's kind of a scarce variety. Notice that the center vertical band of the crown is missing the arcs on the left & right of the pearls. It's not necessarily one of the real "classic" varieties, but it is a hard-to-find one that many look for. Additionally, it's got a funny little error: the 4th stemmed pearl has slid down.

#4 ("1816R 960R. Host coin Peru 1788IJ 8 Reale")
While this doesn't really mean much for it's value, it's uncommon that the reverse of the host coin is the obverse of the 960 Reis coin.

#6 ("1818R 960R. Host coin is Spanish Colonial 8 Reale, 180?, Ferdinand VII.")
This is a beautiful coin, and a scarce classic, "triple branches" variety. Note the triple branches on the obverse as opposed to the usual single branch.

TwoKopeiki · April 26, 2012 12:04AM

<< Very nice purchases. You got a few interesting varieties there:

#1 ("1811R")
This is actually an 1811B, which was struck in fewer quantities than any other Colonial Bahia-struck 960 Reis coin, usually meaning it's worth about 20% more than what another common Colonial Bahia 960 would be worth.

#2 ("1813R 960R, dipped. Host coin is Peru 1807JP 8 Reale")
It's too bad the reverse is the way it is, it's kind of a scarce variety. Notice that the center vertical band of the crown is missing the arcs on the left & right of the pearls. It's not necessarily one of the real "classic" varieties, but it is a hard-to-find one that many look for. Additionally, it's got a funny little error: the 4th stemmed pearl has slid down.

#4 ("1816R 960R. Host coin Peru 1788IJ 8 Reale")
While this doesn't really mean much for it's value, it's uncommon that the reverse of the host coin is the obverse of the 960 Reis coin.

#6 ("1818R 960R. Host coin is Spanish Colonial 8 Reale, 180?, Ferdinand VII.")
This is a beautiful coin, and a scarce classic, "triple branches" variety. Note the triple branches on the obverse as opposed to the usual single branch. >>

Welcome to the forum, 960Coins! That's some great info.

What do you think about these two?

960Coins · April 26, 2012 1:34AM

Hi TwoKopeiki,

Thanks for the welcome.

It looks like the 2nd image you posted didn't link right, was it the obverse of the last image? I couldn't say anything about the last one without seeing the obverse. Nice toning on that 1815, too, though no special variety.

TwoKopeiki · April 26, 2012 2:08AM

<< Hi TwoKopeiki,

Thanks for the welcome.

It looks like the 2nd image you posted didn't link right, was it the obverse of the last image? I couldn't say anything about the last one without seeing the obverse. Nice toning on that 1815, too, though no special variety. >>

Sorry about that - i've updated the post with the proper pictures.

960Coins · April 26, 2012 2:37AM

<< Sorry about that - i've updated the post with the proper pictures. >>

Wow, that 1815 (from Bahia) has really great overstrike details on the reverse, to go along with the nice toning. It's a deceptively higher grade than you might think because of the weakness of the center of the overstrike where the 960 details are completely missing.

The 1818-R looks like a solid VF+ in my opinion. I like the black fields & white details effect of the toning.

TwoKopeiki · April 26, 2012 2:46AM

<< 

<< Sorry about that - i've updated the post with the proper pictures. >>

Wow, that 1815 (from Bahia) has really great overstrike details on the reverse, to go along with the nice toning. It's a deceptively higher grade than you might think because of the weakness of the center of the overstrike where the 960 details are completely missing.

The 1818-R looks like a solid VF+ in my opinion. I like the black fields & white details effect of the toning. >>

Thank you. I don't collect this series, but really liked the fact that the 1815 was showing a strong undertype on the reverse. Too bad the mintmark is completely obliterated. You can also make out a portion of the portrait on the obverse, which appears to be Carolus III.

960Coins · April 26, 2012 3:00AM

<< Thank you. I don't collect this series, but really liked the fact that the 1815 was showing a strong undertype on the reverse. Too bad the mintmark is completely obliterated. You can also make out a portion of the portrait on the obverse, which appears to be Carolus III. >>

The mintmark might be missing, but you can still tell whether it's R or B by the shape of the ends of the crossbars behind the globe. Trapezoids are from Rio, triangles are Bahia.

candy2012mustang · April 26, 2012 5:57AM

It just so happens that I just recieved my first brazil 960 reis in the mail yesterday.

1815 with undertype. I may send this to NGC..It looks really good in hand.

Variety?

960Coins · April 26, 2012 6:42AM

<< It just so happens that I just recieved my first brazil 960 reis in the mail yesterday.

1815 with undertype. I may send this to NGC..It looks really good in hand.

Variety? >>

Also an 1815-B. I like how you can clearly see the Potosi mintmark on the reverse between the N & A of NATA. Undertype mintmarks aren't very often so clear and obvious.

There are well over 2000 cataloged varieties in the 960 Reis series. For example, compare the two 1815s in this thread. At first glance they look similar, but look at the location of the dot after "960" relative to the N in REGENS. Then you notice that the legend is actually positioned differently on each. Look at where the top of the 5 in 15 points and the 1 in 18 points on each. The obverse die is a markedly different variety. Yet, if I'm not mistaken, the reverse die is identical.

Some people try to collect by these, what I call minor, variations. I don't have the book here in front of me, but there are extensive charts to figure out what variety it is. There are these types of minor die varieties, and then there are major varieties like the 1818 triple branch type in the OP.

mnemtsas2 · April 26, 2012 8:55AM

Terrific, a 960R expert has surfaced! Thanks for your observations on these coins! I see what you're talking about with coins 1,2 and 4 but cannot for life of me see what's unusual about coin 6. Care to elaborate on this or are there some online resources you can direct me to?

<< Very nice purchases. You got a few interesting varieties there:

#1 ("1811R")
This is actually an 1811B, which was struck in fewer quantities than any other Colonial Bahia-struck 960 Reis coin, usually meaning it's worth about 20% more than what another common Colonial Bahia 960 would be worth.

#2 ("1813R 960R, dipped. Host coin is Peru 1807JP 8 Reale")
It's too bad the reverse is the way it is, it's kind of a scarce variety. Notice that the center vertical band of the crown is missing the arcs on the left & right of the pearls. It's not necessarily one of the real "classic" varieties, but it is a hard-to-find one that many look for. Additionally, it's got a funny little error: the 4th stemmed pearl has slid down.

#4 ("1816R 960R. Host coin Peru 1788IJ 8 Reale")
While this doesn't really mean much for it's value, it's uncommon that the reverse of the host coin is the obverse of the 960 Reis coin.

#6 ("1818R 960R. Host coin is Spanish Colonial 8 Reale, 180?, Ferdinand VII.")
This is a beautiful coin, and a scarce classic, "triple branches" variety. Note the triple branches on the obverse as opposed to the usual single branch. >>

candy2012mustang · April 26, 2012 11:47AM

I never had one - I always liked the superior size of these 960R's!

I'm gunna send this one out - it will be in my post of the coins going out to ngc & pcgs.

960Coins · April 26, 2012 4:17PM

<< I see what you're talking about with coins 1,2 and 4 but cannot for life of me see what's unusual about coin 6. Care to elaborate on this or are there some online resources you can direct me to? >>

The branches on the obverse. Normally there is just one basic branch, your #6 coin has triple branches, three branches next to each other. Compare the branches between #6 and the normal single branch in #7. There is also a double branch variety.

TwoKopeiki · April 26, 2012 10:14PM

<< 

<< I see what you're talking about with coins 1,2 and 4 but cannot for life of me see what's unusual about coin 6. Care to elaborate on this or are there some online resources you can direct me to? >>

The branches on the obverse. Normally there is just one basic branch, your #6 coin has triple branches, three branches next to each other. Compare the branches between #6 and the normal single branch in #7. There is also a double branch variety. >>

I couldn't see it at first, as well. I see it now - not something you would notice unless you know to look for it!

DeiGratia · April 27, 2012 12:55AM

Really nice these lots are...

My fav being the 1813 & 1818

Love them.

960Coins · April 27, 2012 2:46AM

This is a favorite of mine from my personal collection, due to the clarity of the host coin details (and non-colonial host coin).

TwoKopeiki · April 27, 2012 2:49AM

Love how clear the Madrid mintmark is on that one!

tewcd · April 27, 2012 6:30AM

I recently picked up a couple of these at auction. I'm loving the design on them, and the undertype is just a sweet bonus when the coins actually get here.

mnemtsas2 · April 27, 2012 9:18AM

<< I couldn't see it at first, as well. I see it now - not something you would notice unless you know to look for it!

>>

I see it now, feel stupid for not noticing earlier

That 960R on the Spanish coin is awesome. I've got 20 or so 960R's now and when each arrived I've hoped (with no luck so far) that they are struck on a Spanish coin.

960Coins · April 27, 2012 1:02PM

<< 

<< I couldn't see it at first, as well. I see it now - not something you would notice unless you know to look for it!

>>

I see it now, feel stupid for not noticing earlier

That 960R on the Spanish coin is awesome. I've got 20 or so 960R's now and when each arrived I've hoped (with no luck so far) that they are struck on a Spanish coin. >>

Now you can never un-see it.

Some Brazilian 960R's

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