chinese cash - background info needed
STLNATS
Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭
I've been pretty bored with collecting of late with some of my "regular" core collections becoming a bit stale/uninteresting. Just for fun I thought I'd look into Chinese cash coins to see if I can't get the collecting spark back. I want to do this for fun and not mortgage the farm for the set; maybe just one per dynasty and then emperor as far back as I can go. Of course I want pieces with nice face appeal, not heavily corroded rarities but not necessarily FDC either. Following my own advise elsewhere, I just bought the Jen Krause book to help focus my efforts and will probably wait until it arrives before starting to lay out any money. Asia has been a long term but undeveloped interest and after rummaging around and found a couple of dozen pieces, including a several Song coins and few of Ching multiple denominations that I've had for years and would assume are ok.
If anyone is familiar with this series, a couple of questions. How common are recent counterfeits of this material? I'm just considering the cash (or multiples) with the center hole and nothing rare, but there sure seems to be a ton of high-ish grade early coins floating around (mostly ebay). Also am I safe to assume that anything coming out of China is likely to be fake? I get Steve Album's lists, found a couple of decent online sites and peruse VCoins regularly but is there any other solid dealer(s) I should consider (especially if they have an online site). Anything else I should consider?
Thanks for your help guys and gals!
If anyone is familiar with this series, a couple of questions. How common are recent counterfeits of this material? I'm just considering the cash (or multiples) with the center hole and nothing rare, but there sure seems to be a ton of high-ish grade early coins floating around (mostly ebay). Also am I safe to assume that anything coming out of China is likely to be fake? I get Steve Album's lists, found a couple of decent online sites and peruse VCoins regularly but is there any other solid dealer(s) I should consider (especially if they have an online site). Anything else I should consider?
Thanks for your help guys and gals!
Always interested in St Louis MO & IL metro area and Evansville IN national bank notes and Vatican/papal states coins and medals!
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Comments
-Kev
<< <i>I just bought the Jen Krause book to help focus my efforts and will probably wait until it arrives before starting to lay out any money. >>
"Buy the book, then the coins". Always good advice. I own a 1st edition copy of Jen; hopefully more recent editions have ironed out some of the glitches in it. I've also just bought a copy of David Hartill's new book, "Cast Chinese Coins". It goes into much more detail on identifying the collectable varieties, especially of later Qing Dynasty coins. But it's a "catalogue", not a price guide; it just tells you what to look for and lists rarity, not prices. For that, you still need a book like Jen.
<< <i>How common are recent counterfeits of this material? I'm just considering the cash (or multiples) with the center hole and nothing rare, but there sure seems to be a ton of high-ish grade early coins floating around (mostly ebay). Also am I safe to assume that anything coming out of China is likely to be fake? >>
Actually, you're much more likely to buy fake struck coins from out of China than fake cast cash. We tend to think of casting as a cheap and nasty way to copy a coin, but the times they've a-changed; casting is time-consuming and labour-intensive. It's far easier to make machine-struck replica cash coins than it is to go to all the trouble of casting them. That doesn't mean there aren't fake cast coins out there being made, just that it's far less common than you might think. Now, Vietnam-sourced coins are another question; that country has long been a source of replica Chinese coins.
Which does bring us to the next problem: legality. Technically, since 2009 it's illegal to export pre-1911 cast coins out of China. Many are smuggled into Hong Kong and openly sold from there, where it is still not technically illegal. It's also technically against US Customs regulations to import Chinese artefacts more than 250 years old, thanks to a bizarre appendix to the memorandum of understanding the US state department signed with Cyprus. This eBay Guide makes interesting reading. Remember, under the law, coins are considered antiques.
It's extremely unlikely that a coin shipment would be stopped, seized and repatriated, but if an international transaction went south, you might find your avenues of appeal limited. On that basis, you're probably far better off buying from dealers within the US.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
Also, thanks for the comment on the Hertill book. I figure the Jen book is more of an intro as well as a price guide so something more in depth to help me understand the series sounds like a worthwhile add.
But for those prepared to make the leap, they can be a rewarding collecting avenue.
I too was a bit surprised at the comment but I heard similar comments when I started to collect roman, eastern greek and parthia. While I continue to appreciate the series I collect, I think my current issue is that the stuff is just too familiar and its time to go after something outside of my comfort zone. I've encountered this feeling a couple of times before and chasing a new, unfamiliar series was just the ticket.
Anyone else have any adivice/favorite dealers they can share? Thanks!
<< <i>Just for fun I thought I'd look into Chinese cash coins to see if I can't get the collecting spark back. I want to do this for fun and not mortgage the farm for the set >>
I also collect Chinese cash coins just for fun. Well, I collect all of my coins just for fun, but the CCCs are just plain fun. They are cheap, interesting, historic and different.
<< <i>Candy's attitude is all too common among Western collectors, and goes a long way towards explaining why cash coins aren't as popular here in the West as, say, ancient Roman or medieval English hammered. The cultural and linguistic barrier is too difficult to overcome. But for those prepared to make the leap,. they can be a rewarding collecting avenue. >>
Very well said Sapyx! And if others aren't interested that's OK, more coin opportunities for me!
Although to be honest when I was first exposed to CCCs many years ago I thought, "Why does anyone even collect these ugly corroded coins that you can't tell what they are or when or where they're from?" I mainly collect ancient Greek and related coins. Then I became interested in medieval Silk Road coins. That led to peripheral exposure to CCCs and learning about them. And now I love them. I even appreciate the beauty of the toning/corrosion. I never saw that coming.
But ultimately, like my sig says, I'm collecting history in the form of coins. If I wasn't interested in the history of the coins I collect I probably wouldn't collect them. I collect ancient Greek coins because I'm interested in ancient Greek history. I have shelves of ancient Greek history books. I read early American history and collect early American coins. (But not many as they're usually price prohibiting for me. Grrrr.) And once I started to learn about Chinese history CCCs became more interesting
As Sapyx pointed out, we Westerners don't get much exposure to ancient or medieval Chinese history. So it takes some effort to learn. I can now even read a few Chinese characters which I learned just from the coins.
Sapyx is right on with the Hartill and Jen book recommendations. But I find myself always pulling out Hartill. I find it the most useful. But do get Jen.
There's a Yahoo Group, Ancient_Chinese_Coins. It's not real active but David Hartill and other experienced collectors post there.
Here's a site with a good overview, Primal Trek Chinese Coins.
And the homepage has more links, Primal Trek homepage.
And Zeno's Chinese section will keep you busy, Zeno.
Notes:
-You will see the terms, 1 cash, 3 cash, 5 cash 10 cash, these are value denominations. Also called wen, 1 wen, 3 wen etc.
- Chinese coin characters are generally read in the following order, top, bottom, right, left. But there are exceptions.
All of my following coins are from the Northern Song Dynasty 960-1127, Emperor Hui Zong 1101-1126.
From the Primal Trek site: "Emperor Hui Zong (1101-1125) was a man of culture and the arts but one whose decisions regarding administration of the state resulted in the fall of the Northern Song through defeat by the Jin. Nevertheless, the coins cast during his reign are considered among the very best produced during the Song Dynasty in terms of their quality, artistic essence and calligraphy."
Chong Ning Tong Bao - These were made from 1102-1106.
Chong Ning Tong Bao, 5 cash with Li script. This specimen is not ordinary. Large characters and fine style type. Very deep legend. Thick flan. Very scarce variation of Chong Ning Zhong Bao coins.
34.3mm, 12.3g
These next Chong Ning Tong Bao are made using the Slender Gold Script. Emperor Hui Zong did the calligraphy for the inscription on these Chong Ning Tong Bao coins. His calligraphy is quite distinctive and is known as Slender Gold Script because the characters resemble twisted gold filaments.
10 cash, 35.2mm 11.9gm
I originally bought this set of Chong Ning Tong Bao, 5 cash thinking I would keep one or two and give the rest as gifts. (It was only $26 for all 6) I thought it would be fun to put a 900+ year old Chinese coin in birthday cards. But they are so beautiful I decided to keep them all! I call it my Brown Sugar Set because some look like they were coated in brown sugar. (And yes they are genuine.)
Da Guan Tong Bao, 10 cash - These were made from 1107-1110.
The Da Guan Tong Bao using Emperor Hui Zong's Slender Gold Script are considered to have some of the most beautiful calligraphy on Chinese coins.
10 cash, 41mm 16.2gm
A nice circulated example. I love circulated coins because they were used by the people in the time of the history I'm interested in.
10 cash, 40.6mm 19.4gm
I post this one just so you can see the various colors these can take on. The green blue color in the picture is accurate.
10 cash, 41.4mm
The above are all from the Northern Song Dynasty 960-1127 which is just a very very small part of Chinese numismatic history. There is so much more. Although I didn't post any coins from it I am fascinated by the Tang Dynasty (618-907) which is regarded as the golden age of China. It has a lot of interesting history. Tang Dynasty coins are easy to find.
Whatever you decide to collect I would recommend that you Google the dynasty or emperor. Learning some things about them will make these "ugly corroded coins" come to life.
OK, I need to stop somewhere ...
Chinese cash coins are not a major collecting focus of mine. But they are just fun to collect and learn about.
Thanks so much so much for taking the time to share your knowledge with me...
edited to add: I found that I already have a couple of the "Da Guan Tong Bao" pieces. Not only is the script lovely to look at, the large size of the coins and open fields even have an interesting feel to them I haven't experienced with western coins.