RESULT of... Taking a gamble - Is this a US-PI 1918-S Large or Small S Centavo?

IloiloKano · July 14, 2011 12:21PM

Yesterday I purchased a Buy-It-Now US-PI 1918-S One Centavo coin, because I thought there's a chance the seller (a dealer) might not have noticed it as a Large S variety. Though I seriously doubt I would be so lucky, it was simply too close a call for me not to take the gamble. I guess I'll know for sure in a few days when it arrives in the mail. In the meantime, what do you guys think? The coin I purchased was presented with a very low resolution picture, which I've enlarged by about 70% and placed between an image of a Large S variety on the left and an image of my own Small S variety on the right.

Edited to add...
Note: If it's a Large S variety, this $20 purchase becomes a $500 to $1000 coin, depending on whether it's an AU50, AU53, AU55 or AU58.

When the coin arrives, I'll post the outcome and take a better picture to add to this post.

Okay, so the centavo arrived, I photographed it, and I created a composite image comparing it to my PCGS Registry example. I now know it isn't a Large S version, but I still can't tell if it qualifies as a Medium S variety. It certainly is a different variety, as the date and lettering are clearly different, and the difference isn't due to lighting. Specifically, examine the U on each centavo, where the fatter U actually has a larger gap between the serifs. The gap would appear smaller if fat appearance of lettering was due to lighting.

Interestingly, both Centavos have the same lump in the field to the upper left of the shield, which I've also noted on other Centavos having both different dates and mint marks. I believe this "lump" must have been on one of the master dies.

HoledandCreative · July 14, 2011 4:38PM

Looks small to me. Too much space between bottom of S and dentils.

rec78 · July 14, 2011 4:46PM

Small-soory.

The S on the first coin is much larger. The second photo was taken on more of an angle-Thus everything on the coin appears larger. Hope I am wrong. JMO-Bob

Added-I have been trying to cherrypick one of these for years-but I have ever only seen one and it was a very low grade at that. (below ag)

FilamCoins · July 14, 2011 7:35PM

You're a great hunter,that's for sure. Tough coin. For $20, can't go wrong. I remember either reading or having a discussion about a "medium" S as well. Did Lyman, Czahor, Shafer or Basso mention it? Can't remember if it was one of those guys or justhavingfun. Make sure you have a conversation with PCGS before submitting because they are going to have to call in an expert to attribute it. I'm guessing it doesn't get the variety, since the Large S's I've seen have almost touched the dot and the dentils and tend to be at more of a horizontal angle (compared to the pic you posted). Good luck anyway.

IloiloKano · July 14, 2011 11:50PM

<< <i>Small-sorry.

The S on the first coin is much larger. The second photo was taken on more of an angle-Thus everything on the coin appears larger. Hope I am wrong. JMO-Bob

Added-I have been trying to cherrypick one of these for years-but I have ever only seen one and it was a very low grade at that. (below ag) >>

I think you're most likely correct. Still...

I did see one listed on ebay about 2 years ago where the seller didn't say it was a large S; however, it became obvious that several others noticed it when bidding sky-rocketed beyond my budget.

This one was put up as a Buy-It-Now, and I didn't even ask for a better picture from the seller, since I didn't want anyone else to have a chance to take the same gamble.

Even as a small S, I believe there's a small chance the seller mistook a typical weak strike for this date (eagle's breast feathers) as wear, and called it AU in the listing, when it could be uncirculated. If that's the case, then $20 would still be a great bargain.

IloiloKano · July 15, 2011 12:12AM

<< <i>I remember either reading or having a discussion about a "medium" S as well. Did Lyman, Czahor, Shafer or Basso mention it? Can't remember if it was one of those guys or justhavingfun. >>

Just checked Lyman Allen's 6th edition, and he states, "It is thought that an S punch for a Fifty Centavo was used to produce this LARGE S variety. Small and medium mintmarks also have been noted for this date." Note that Neil Shafer's 1961 edition lists prices for the Large S variety as G $0.30, F $1.00, EF $2.50, Unc. $5.00 & BU $7.50, while Allen's 6th edition lists VF $125, EF $275, AU $600, MS60 $1100, MS63 $2000 & MS65 $3,750. Fifty years seems to have made a huge difference in prices!

jetblack740il · July 15, 2011 3:42AM

I'm pretty sure PCGS only recognized normal s and Large S.

IloiloKano · July 15, 2011 5:48AM

<< <i>I'm pretty sure PCGS only recognized normal s and Large S. >>

You're correct on that.

I think you in fact might be the seller.

If not, then he's from your neck of the woods in Rancho Cordova, CA.

If so, then I can forget about any possibility of you having undergraded the coin or missed a large S variety.

krueger · July 15, 2011 6:52AM

I once owned this coin (the one with the scartch by the "s" in states)

I judged it to be the infamous medium "S" in a high AU grade. I have seen these on occasion over the years confusing dealers who have hopes.

Still, not a bad coin as an example of such. Still too esoteric to be graded with such a designation though. In my experience PCGS seems to had a little more trouble with Philippine varieties then NGC did, though they are getting better at it as they have recently removed several other bogus Large "S" centavo varieties from there registry set composites. David lange at NGC is a Philippine coin and reknown variety expert . He could probably give you more info on it if you desired to do more research.

Krueger

IloiloKano · July 15, 2011 11:04AM

Before I would try getting it attributed, I would send it to Ray Czahor or Lyman Allen for advice, since PCGS would very likely contact one of them as expert on the matter anyway. I've had genial correspondence with both of them, and I believe either of the two would take the time to freely offer advice.

Most likely, I will simply keep the coin raw, just as I have my 1908 "Horned S" Centavo.

1960NYGiants · July 16, 2011 11:42AM

Based on the spacing between the S and dot above I vote LARGE.

IloiloKano · July 18, 2011 11:07AM

Update with images in the first post.

krueger · July 18, 2011 1:12PM

The Lump in the field is a "Clash Mark" from the obverse die having imprinted the figures hammer head on the reverse die.

Looking at the hammer head and flip the coin over in "coin Turn" that is end over end and you will see it is in the same spot where you see the square lump.

Why you see these on some pieces in the 1918 through early 1920's is unknown. I speculate that maybe they were checking pressures on the press and slammed one die pair together without a planchet. Not all pieces have the clash.

Krueger

rec78 · July 18, 2011 5:08PM

Nice discovery- It seems much stronger struck than the other one. A different die. The 9 in the date seems different with an overlap on the top inside curl-Does the inside upper curl of the 9 overlap at the center or am I seeing things?-- Bob

Justhavingfun · July 19, 2011 4:48AM

Well, it's been so long, I wasn't sure I remembered my password. But here I am, so I guess I did.

Anyway, unfortunately it's definitely not the large S. But the 1918-s itself, is an under appreciated coin, and a nice specimen like that is worth a few bucks.

It looks like the medium "S" but I'd want to look at it underneath a lens with one of my large S and small S present for comparison.

Whatever it is, you've scored a nice coin. Congrats.

Just having fun

1jester · July 20, 2011 8:31PM

It is a very beautiful coin!

I managed to score a large S 1918-S cent at auction with poor pictures. It cost me a whopping 75 cents about 12 years ago, and it was in nice AU condition - except for 2 small but very noticeable gouges on one side. Still, a very attractive coin and I think I got about $100 for it when I sold it on ebay 5-6 years ago. They are still out there, so keep hunting!

RESULT of... Taking a gamble - Is this a US-PI 1918-S Large or Small S Centavo?

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