Counterstamped Conder

JamesMurray · February 1, 2011 3:57PM

I wondered what others might speculate or know about this kind of marking on any Conders , in fairness i've seen a few over the years but i don't remember seeing a stamped token.I really don't know the purpose of the stamping but as might be imagined have a theory or two.The stamp is actually quite well done and doesnt really disturb the other side overly.Its an Edinburgh token which makes the X interesting as the Scottish flag is actually a big X , and of course it denotes 10 , looking at it it appears as lXl but i dont think the sidebars are part of whats being signified,more of a border but i don't know.Any opinions appreciated and read with interest , thanks

lordmarcovan · February 1, 2011 4:16PM

Very interesting.

I haven't a clue, unfortunately.

JamesMurray · February 1, 2011 4:19PM

Thank you LM , i thought so too , my theory is these were maybe produced in number , more or less generic for merchants to buy and issue , i wonder if the stamp denotes denomination.I'd really like to see a similar one or hear from someone who might know.

lordmarcovan · February 1, 2011 4:43PM

It's really hard for me to see if that is IXI or an X with a border around it, as you mentioned.

JamesMurray · February 1, 2011 4:54PM

It's impossible to say without actually knowing what it means i suspect , even this close up doesn't change things.

Lancastercoin · February 1, 2011 7:16PM

Is that actually a conder? The style looks off.

theboz11 · February 1, 2011 7:29PM

Kinda crude for a conder, don't you think? Contemporary counterfeit? Double struck obverse. The merchant must have made his own. He could have Hammered one that good. The stamp has more quality in the marking than the original minter put in the piece

FilthyBroke · February 1, 2011 8:54PM

It's a conder all right, I had one like it a while back (less the counterstamp). These are rather rare, and seem to all have the weak strike, at least from what I saw. I had reference numbers and info on it at one point, but it could take some digging to find it.

Sorry I don't have any info on the stamp. I'm not really sure why a small stamp like this was put on a token, I'd like to find out more about it, too.

theboz11 · February 1, 2011 9:59PM

Learn smoething new everyday here, Thanks.

FilthyBroke · February 1, 2011 10:37PM

Here was my old one from about three years ago.

D&H-2 Lothian/Edinburgh, that's all the info that came with it. I really like this Conder design.

farthing · February 1, 2011 11:14PM

The token in question is a Lothian Edinburgh #3 - the noted difference between #2 and #3 is the position of the middle horn on the left of the bucks head in relation to the N of BRITAIN. Yours is pretty normal condition for the token.

There are several Conder tokens that are often seen with known countermarks. Norfolk Yarmouth #52 is sometimes found with a rose countermark (I have one) while the shared Kent Goudhurst tokens of William Fuggle and William Mynn (#28 and #29 - same design just different edge lettering indicating whose token is which) can be found countermarked with either a F on #28 or a M on #29. It is assumed that the F or M countermarked indicate that the token was redeemed.

I have not heard of the countermark on your token however.

FilthyBroke · February 2, 2011 3:29AM

Thanks, farthing. I see the difference now, but would have never picked that up without it being pointed out.

Sorry to sidetrack the OP. As for the counterstamp, maybe ask savoyspecial about it? I think he may have a book on them (counterstamps), too.

JamesMurray · February 2, 2011 5:11AM

Wonderful information guys ,thank you , it's invaluable to know there were countermarks and i'm satisfied it denotes or identifies the merchant or where it's to be redeemed.Thanks for that Farthing.I thought it odd it's not mentioned in Mr Conder's book , the countermarks i mean.

JamesMurray · February 2, 2011 5:25PM

<< <i>Thanks, farthing. I see the difference now, but would have never picked that up without it being pointed out.

Sorry to sidetrack the OP. As for the counterstamp, maybe ask savoyspecial about it? I think he may have a book on them (counterstamps), too. >>

To update , thanks FB , i had a very interesting conversation with SS tonight and was given some really insightful information and ideas. Ideas are plentiful and as SS points out the IXI in those days could signify JXJ as the I could be a J or the stamp could be pictorial rather than initials or numeral. This got me thinking back to my original post and i looked out a few more tokens.

On both of these examples we see the X , its use is as the Scottish flag. Perhaps the countermark really is as simple as that. Thank you to all for some interesting ideas and information.

Counterstamped Conder

Comments