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Info/help on this Papal Medal

JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
Hey guys,
I picked up this papal medal because I was intrigued by it. It looks to be a gilt-pewter, or gilt-tin medal with most of the gilding worn off.
It is a very thin piece that shows reverse rippling due to the heavy strong obverse strike. I am assuming this is a restike on pewter, but I am not sure.
It is an Urban VIII papal medal and the reverse depicts the Battle of Lepanto Against the Turks. It is dated 1571
Is this a mule striking? I am not sure this reverse was originally paired with Urban VIII. If not does anyone know the Spink number for this piece?
Any info is appreciated.

image
image
Some coins are just plain "Interesting"

Comments

  • rwyarmchrwyarmch Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    As near as I can tell, the reverse is from the 6th year medal of Pius V (Mazio 96) and the obverse is from the 8th year medal of Urban VIII (Mazio 198) from around 1630.
    British Historical Medals https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOBxKspf6DVpvjgXptTKSr_tZcyeWIRJRBX7ZklmSP59IKhtiAkgF2NB0-Vxyhz1w?key=OGdSRXJtZWdsb2VodmNEdWJ4VF9jY01YdmJtRTlB
    Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
  • IosephusIosephus Posts: 872 ✭✭✭
    Definitely an unofficial muling, and thus no Spink number. A quick glance through the Miselli book (most recent and comprehensive for Urban VIII medals) does not find this muling listed either. I wonder how it was made; the reverse looks really weird and soft, which contrasts with the much stronger obverse.
    Joe
    Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the response guys. The reverse strike sure is interesting Joe. The medal gives the impression that the reverse die did not strike the medal cleanly. It is off center and gives the appearance of a broadstrike. I will post this on the US coin board to see if the error guys can better understand what happened. I assumed this was a muling as I could not see it in my copy of Spink's Catalogue.
    Interesting.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭
    It is more likely made of 'White Metal". A combination much like pewter.image
    My Medals collection

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  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just an update on some info I was able to find.
    This is in fact a mule striking. The original, as mentioned was on a Pope Pius V piece. Here is a better image of the reverse as seen on a gilt-bronze Pope Pius V piece.
    image
    And here is an image I was able to find of an original Pope Pius V depiction of the medal in bronze.
    Notice on this piece the die crack forming to the left of the sail on the top ship on the left at approx K10.
    This same die crack can be seen on my piece leading to the point that this was the same die used on my piece above.
    It has been suggested that the reverse die may have been heat damaged and put aside only to be later pressed back into service
    to strike a few more pieces.
    Fascinating.
    image
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • IosephusIosephus Posts: 872 ✭✭✭


    << <i>It has been suggested that the reverse die may have been heat damaged and put aside only to be later pressed back into service to strike a few more pieces. >>


    Definitely not. The die still exists in the museum of the Rome Mint and does not show any damage like that (the die crack is of course present). I doubt this was struck.
    Joe
    Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Joe,
    Thanks for the info. Do you think this might be an electrotype or possibly a spark erosion die?
    It is referred to as a white metal. I am thinking along the lines of pewter or tin. Would this be likely?
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • IosephusIosephus Posts: 872 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Hey Joe,
    Thanks for the info. Do you think this might be an electrotype or possibly a spark erosion die?
    It is referred to as a white metal. I am thinking along the lines of pewter or tin. Would this be likely? >>


    I'm not sure, as I myself am not the most knowledgeable about all of the manufacturing processes. Something such as electrotyping might be possible, though I noticed in the other thread you mentioned (and posted a pic) that the edge did not contain a seam. Some flaws are also present on the obverse, such as around the 'X' in 'MAX', which I do not think should be present from striking.
    Joe
    Virtus Collection - Renaissance and Baroque Medals
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with you 100% Joe.
    Here is a close-up of the area you mentioned. There is a fold of metal that appears to be present on
    some areas of the obverse (not reverse) which I tend to think can occur from a casting. But I too
    am not knowledgeable in all areas of medal production.

    I do not have any leaning or preference to the type of manufacture of this piece other than a desire to understand it.
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
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