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gettyongo12 · August 3, 2010 8:12AM

anacs & ngc grading.. how well do they do with foreign /ancients?

newsman · August 3, 2010 8:15AM

I like the fact that they don't just grade the wear, but also the strike and surface quality

JCMhouston · August 3, 2010 8:54AM

Well NGC grades really seem to be pretty decent and I think they are adding a lot to the ancients market. People seem more willing to dip their toes in the market now that there is a reasonable authenticity gurantee. As far as grade vs. style I think it's similar to more modern coins, some people value pure grade, and some favor style.

covers · August 3, 2010 9:56AM

I disagree. For the ebay crowd of buyers, that might add value as much for authenticity as anything else (and I have no problem with the grading I have seen). For brick and mortar auction buyers, the coins can't be examined in-hand and pictures are messed up by the prongs, both of which are important as far as I am concerned. I won't bid on anything in plastic (which I would just have to liberate anyhow if purchased).

savoyspecial · August 3, 2010 10:03AM

>>Well NGC grades really seem to be pretty decent and I think they are adding a lot to the ancients market. People seem more willing to dip their toes in the market now that there is a reasonable authenticity gurantee...>>

read the fine print on NGC's own website, they do not fully warrant their claim of a <ancient> coin's authenticity

JCMhouston · August 3, 2010 11:27AM

<< For the ebay crowd of buyers >>

I assume you mean this in a negative way. All I can say is the same thing was said about world coins 5 years ago, and some of the finest world coin auctions in recent years have included more and more slabbed coins. Occasionally a really nice piece comes up on ebay, so it's a good idea to keep looking there, I've bought one or two there my own self.

And I did not say NGC "fully warrant(ed)", I said they provide a reasonable authenticity gurantee, completely different thought.

And to be honest I have no care in the world how you or anyone else collects, but that wasn't the question posed by the OP. When we are talking about the market we are discussing large populations of people, not you or me. And I believe the market will most likely move toward slabs for high priced items in ancients, just as it has in world coins. I know of a really fine collection of British rarities in the US, and I have had the pleasure of looking at parts of it. Probably the majority of his collection is unslabbed, and unknown to most collectors. Never the less, he is not the market, it's the other 99.9% of collectors who do like slabs that are the market.

At my age (I've been collecting since the 70's) I have to give some thought to what my heirs will do if something happens to me suddenly. And while coins may not be a large percentage of my estate I still want thm to be able to (relatively) easily realize the collections value if they sell it. And to be honest the easiest way is to have them slabbed and put in to a good auction. Yep, I still buy raw, bought 3 raw in the past two weeks, but then I send them off to be entombed.

CIVITAS · August 4, 2010 3:32AM

There is no guarantee whatsoever for NGC ancients other than grade (which is near meaningless for ancients since technical grade is only a part of market value). From their website:

<< NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. >>

http://www.ngccoin.com/ancients/guarantee.aspx

That being said, it does mean it has been in the hands of a knowledgeable numismatist, David Vagi. So you have an opinion that would carry a good deal of weight with regards to authenticity. But there will come a time where he will be fooled (as we all will) so any guarantee would have to come from the seller of the certified coin (as any reputable ancients dealer will offer). So, you will have to check the Goldberg's auction terms to see what they offer.

As you've already discovered, grade is only a small part of an ancient coin's market value. Style, surfaces, centering, strike, flan shape and quality, patina, and eye appeal all go into it as well.

FWIW, you might be able to buy comparable raw coins for much less from other auctions houses such as Classical Numismatic Group, Stacks, Ponterio or Baldwins. I believe all but Baldwin's offers a lifetime authenticity guarantee as well (check terms to be sure).

savoyspecial · August 4, 2010 9:00AM

Josh (and others),

would you rank a certificate from ACCS (David Sear) as having more weight than an NGC slab?

determined · August 4, 2010 5:30PM

I can't speak for the market. But here's some thoughts of a long time ancients collector.

<< How much market penetration does NGC Ancients have in determining the Ancient coin's market/auction closing value? >>

I don't think much at all with experienced collectors.

<< Do bidders take NGC Ancient's word to heart like they do for the most part in the U.S Coin market and let that help determine value on top of the style & beauty of the coin? >>

Again, I think experienced ancient collectors pay little or no attention to NGC's grading. I know when I am interested in an ancient coin that's in a NGC slab I never look at their grades. I don't care. I judge the coin myself. But NGC's grades may be valued by very new ancient collectors.

<< Or, when you're bidding on Ancients, do you just care about the style of the coin over NGC's technical grade? (Say you have an ugly NGC Graded Ch XF but a beautiful Raw VF Athenian Owl)

Ex. I've seen Ch XF Ancients sell for a lot less than raw VF Ancients due to the coin's style over NGC's "Technical grade" of it. I found this disparity weird and makes me wonder how much pull NGC Ancients have in the Ancient coin market against raw unslabbed coins. >>

I value historical significance and style much more than condition. I think many other ancient collectors feel the same. And I don't care much at all about what NGC says the Technical grade is.

I do have one NGC slabbed ancient. I had been looking for a long time for a very specific Alexander the Great gold stater. I finally found it. The only one I had ever seen for sale. And it was in a NGC slab. And it was attributed to the wrong mint! But that was to my benefit. It would have sold for much more if the seller knew what he really had. Thanks NGC!

Oh and what are the NGC grades of that slabbed Alexander stater that I bought? I don't know. I never really looked.

I can see where someone new to ancients, with all the fakes around, would like the guarantee that their new NGC slabbed ancient is not a fake.

But wait a second...

... there is no guarantee. (And by guarantee I don't mean that NGC can't make a mistake. But that they will compensate you if they have.) If not what's the point? So I can get their enlightened opinion on strike and surface? No thanks. That's useless to me. I can see the coin and judge for myself if the surfaces and strike are good.

I can understand NGC hesitating on guaranteeing a $20,000 coin. There are very good fakes out there. But if you can't guarantee a $200 coin what does that say about your confidence in your authenticating skills?

So their authentication is almost meaningless. But I will concede for new collectors it's better than nothing.

If they truly had a real guarantee I think this would be a very good thing for this fake infested hobby.

But they don't, so it's not.

And I don't like their strike, surfaces, and style grading. It's not needed. It's purely superfluous. And what's next? Pluses? 4+. Or stars? 4*. Or half points? 4.5. Or pluses and stars and half points? 4.5+*.

I can't speak for the market. But here's what some (mostly experienced) ancient collectors have said about slabbed ancients:

Slabbed ancient coins?

Certified Slabbed Ancients (3 pages)

In short, I think experienced collectors do not at all like NGC slabbed ancients. The word disdain comes to mind. But new collectors may find it of some comfort.

Sapyx · August 4, 2010 8:38PM

I would agree with most of what determined and the other naysayers have said. The short answer to the question posed by the thread title...

<< NGC Ancients - How market accepted are they? >>

...is, "They aren't.".

I will give credit where credit is due. NGC have attempted to answer some of the concerns originally expressed by ancients collectors back when the TPGs first started slabbing ancients.

The "Martian Claw" holder adopted by NGC addresses the original concern that you can't see the edge of a slabbed coin. You still can't see the entire edge, but I suppose a little glimpse of it is better than none at all.

The multi-dimensional grading system they've adopted also attempts to address the original concern that a single Sheldon-style alphanumeric grade offers nowhere near enough information about what an ancient coin actually looks like. It's an attempt to quantify the components of the largely qualitative concept of "eye appeal".

So, 5 points to NGC for trying. But it's still well below the 100 points needed to satisfy the ancients crowd.

I suspect this is also why PCGS is reluctant to begin slabbing ancients. They know there's no demand for it, unless they can offer a perfect system that will actually keep the diehard old-school ancients collectors happy. And right now they have no idea what such a perfect system might look like. For now I think they're happy to let NGC do the experimenting (and make the mistakes) in this field.

<< Josh (and others), would you rank a certificate from ACCS (David Sear) as having more weight than an NGC slab? >>

Yes. I trust David Sear to "get it right" regarding authenticity and attribution more than I would trust NGC (though I recognise that neither are perfect and mistake-free). And I wouldn't have to crack a slab open to get at the coin.

CIVITAS · August 5, 2010 3:11AM

<< Josh (and others),

would you rank a certificate from ACCS (David Sear) as having more weight than an NGC slab? >>

If I had to choose between the two, I'd go with Sear. Vagi is sharp, but Sear's been at it a lot longer. I'm just giving more weight to experience in this case, especially since neither service guarantees authenticity.

determined · August 7, 2010 9:08AM

I wanted to add to what I wrote above.

I wrote that NGC's slabbed ancients may be of some comfort to new ancient collectors. By "new" ancient collectors I didn't just mean collectors new to ancients but any collector new to any area of ancients.

In ancients, I mainly collect specific areas of ancient Greek coins. In those areas that I'm experienced with, a NGC slab means little. But if I was to start collecting Roman coins I don't know much about them. So if a Roman coin I was interested in was in a NGC slab, that would give me some assurance of authenticity.

But again, there is no guarantee. So that assurance is very limited.

Ancients don't need a new grading system they need authenticating.

I think the knee jerk rejection you see from many ancient collectors is because NGC slabs do the opposite.

They introduce a new grading system that is not needed. And they do not have guaranteed authentication which is needed. And very sorely needed.

DennisH · August 8, 2010 3:15AM

It looks to me like this discussion has dissolved into the endless-loop raw vs. graded debate. On that topic my opinion is, buy what you like, let others do the same, and spend time hyperventilating on something more important. My personal preference is graded coins over raw, whether they're Morgan dollars or ancients. In the case of ancients it's because there has been a layer of expertise involved in authenticating and identifying that I simply don't have a clue about. Up until now ICG was the only company I had seen holdering ancients. My gripe with them was putting coins into holders that are too thick for them, which causes their surface layer to develop spider cracks. With NGC now grading them I will be much more likely to buy ancients than I was before, because I trust them more. An accuracy guarantee would be preferable, but some NGC is better than no NGC in my opinion. If PCGS ever starts doing ancients I will be even more likely to buy ancients.

BillyKingsley · August 8, 2010 7:33AM

I wonder if that import restriction thing with Italy, might help NGCAncient's acceptibility...IE...if a Roman coin was in there...it is exempt from that thing...

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