Any Australia Pre-decimal proof experts here?

mrpotatoheadd · July 3, 2010 12:01PM

Saw a 1954 sixpence described as proof at a show today, priced at $750. Sounds like a screaming deal, if the coin is actually proof and not just a real nice business strike. I looked at the coin for 10 minutes and came away unconvinced one way or the other. When I got home, I checked Heritage and found a nice big picture of an NGC certified proof, which didn't help clear things up at all. Maybe it is... maybe not. Anybody have any suggestions or ideas or thoughts regarding these proofs?

Walter · July 3, 2010 12:43PM

The 1954 6d was only struck as a business strike. They were struck from chrome plated dies which gives them the appearance of proof strikes. The services were wrong to slab them, the PCGS pop has already decreased by 1 so I'd say they bought one in.

Pre-Decimal Proofs were produced in the following years:

1910 London mint Specimen (3d, 6d, 1/-, 2/-) - Mintage 28 in plush blue case
1911 London mint Matte Proof (1/2D, 1D, 3d, 6d, 1/-, 2/-) - POR only
1914 Heaton mint Proof (1/2D, 2/-) - POR only
1915 Heaton mint Proof (1D?, 1/-) - POR only
1916 Melbourne mint Proof set (3D, 6D, 1/-, 2/-) - Mintage 60 in plush blue case
1918-1921 - Various debased trials (3D - 1918, 1921*?, 6D 1921*?, 1/- 1918, 1919, 1920*, 2/- 1920*)
1919-1926 Sydney Mint Specimens (they were certainly produced, but I'm always very skeptical on the silver/copper that appears on the market) - POR only
1923-1928 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D, 3D, 6D, 1/-, 2/-) - POR only
1929-1932 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D) - POR only
1933 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D, 1/-, 2/-) - POR only
1927 Proof Canberra Florin - Mintage 400
1927 Obverse Pattern (2/-, 1/-) - 2 Known
1934 Melbourne Mint Proof (1/2D, 1D, 3D, 6D, 1/-, 2/-) - Mintage 60
1935 Melbourne Mint Proof (1/2D, 1D) - Mintage - 126
1936 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D, 2 - POR only (questionable)
1937 Patterns (1D, 3D, 1/-, 2/-)
1937 Melbourne Mint Proof (5/-) - Mintage 100 or 250 - records unclear
1938 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D, 3D, 6D, 1/-, 2/-, 5/-) - Mintage 100 (Sold: 1/2D: 78; 1D: 94; 3D: 100; 6D: 68; 1/-: 94; 2/-: 80; 5/-: 52)
1939 Melbourne Mint Proof (1/2D Roo) - 100
1939 Melbourne Mint Proof (1D) - POR only
1942-I Bombay Mint Proof (1/2D, 1D) - 1965 Restrikes
1943-I Bombay Mint Proof (1/2D, 1D) - 1965 Restrikes
1941 (1940?) - 1954 Perth Mint Proofs (1/2D, 1D, 1/-?) - POR only
1945 Melbourne Mint Patterns (1D, 1/-) - POR only
1946 Royal Mint Trial Florin (2/-) - On Cu-Ni planchet - Mintage 4
1951 Royal Mint Trial Jubilee Florin (2/-) - On Cu-Ni planchet - Mintage 4
1951 Royal Mint Proofs (1/D, 1D, 3D, 6D) - POR only
1953 Melbourne Mint Proofs (1D, 3D, 6D, 1/-, 2/-) - Mintage 12?
1954 Proof Royal Visit Florin (2/-) - I'm only aware of 1
1955-63 Melbourne Mint Proofs - Commercial Proofs
1955-63 Perth Mint Proofs - Commercial Proofs

I think I've listed them all here. The ones in bold are the ones you can reasonably expect to encounter.

mrpotatoheadd · July 3, 2010 12:56PM

Not to be a doubting Thomas, but both the Krause catalog and the Greg McDonald catalog list proofs, and NGC has certified them (well, at least one).

Elizabeth II Proof Sixpence 1954 Melbourne Mint, KM52, Proof 64 NGC

Walter · July 3, 2010 1:17PM

I'm aware that PCGS (2) and NGC (3) have certified them, (the PCGS count has since decreased by 1 - I'm guessing they bought 1 in and NGC is now slabbing them as PL).

a.) The Melbourne mint records only indicate proof strikes of the Royal Visit Florin that year.
b.) The Melbourne mint museum has a complete collection of pre-decimal coins that were produced at the Melbourne mint - for the 1954 6d they used a business strike - they've used proof strikes in every year they were available.
c.) Even if PORs were issued that year (which there'd be a record of), they are generally numbered 3-10 - there have been a lot more supposed proofs on the market than that.

mrpotatoheadd · July 3, 2010 1:46PM

Thanks for the info.

edited to add...

<< <i>They were struck from chrome plated dies which gives them the appearance of proof strikes. >>

Based on my inspection, this actually makes a lot of sense. I have owned several proof pennies and halfpennies, and these had edges squared off so sharply that it looked like you could shave with them. The sixpence, on the other hand, had much more rounded-off edges. It would seem to me, if it was possible to strike a large bronze coin with sharp edges, a small silver coin would be a piece of cake.

7Jaguars · July 3, 2010 11:46PM

Not to butt in, but I agree that the PL strikes are deceptive.

However, and as a caveat, I would say that just because a date or denomination is not yet known in proof is not de facto proof (excuse the pun) that none in fact were produced.

I daresay that some of the Brit series catalogued as proof by both the "biggie" TPGs are in fact not, or at least I would not accept them as proof - esp Wreath Crowns...

mnemtsas2 · July 4, 2010 7:44AM

Walter is absolutely correct, regardless of what Krause or McDonalds say. I have spoken to many of the leading numismatic identities in a Australia and all agree that no proof strikings of the 1954 6d were produced. The chrome plated dies are to blame, the same issue arises from other issues such as the 1954 2s and 1s and the 1956 2s (which does have proof strikings but the circ examples struck from chrome plated dies are often mis-identified as proofs).

Some years ago it was interesting watching the NGC and PCGS populations for 1954 6d's soar as someone was clearly submitting many of these coins trying to get one graded as a proof.

Any Australia Pre-decimal proof experts here?

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