Still learning interesting little tidbits. I love this hobby!

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · July 1, 2010 9:57PM

My 10 year old daughter was given a school assignment in which she was able to choose one of several suggested topics. Her choice was to learn about the Roman Numeral number system. While helping her out with some explanations, I found out that, aside from the normal letters we are all used to seeing, there are other symbols used to denote fractions. (Wikipedia - "Roman Numerals")

A single dot equates to 1/12. A triangular pattern of 3 dots equates to 3/12 or 1/4. When I saw that, instantly the ole' light bulb went off in my head, and I believe the 3 dots used on each corner of hammered silver pennies (i.e. the Henry III Long Cross 1d pictured below) denotes each quarter of the coin, helping identify each piece when they are cut into smaller denominations (half penny, quarter penny). Now, this is just an assumption on my part, but it makes perfect sense.
I would have never thought that those 3 dots were actually a form of Roman Numerals!

I apologize if everyone else always knew this, but I thought it was kind of a neat little revelation!

I was able to share this (and a bit more) coin knowledge with my daughter who, hopefully, learned a little more than just the minimum requirements for her assignment.

I love learning new things!

(not mine just borrowed for illustrative purposes)

RobP · July 1, 2010 10:07PM

That's plausible, but not conclusive. Assuming the crosses used in the short cross series only applied prior to the introduction of such a system, the only exception to this rule would appear to be the Edward I halfpennies from Newcastle which have only a single pellet in each quarter and the otherwise marked issues such as the scallop for Reading. Occasionally you also see an additional pellet in one or more quarters, but nobody has come up with a reason for this to my knowledge although it would be surprising if not done intentionally.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · July 2, 2010 12:49AM

I suppose I based my assumption on the fact that there were several inconsistencies throughout early English coinage. There were both "Georgius IIII" and "Georgius IV" legends, 1799 Farthings were marked as such, then not again until 1860, dates moved from reverse to obverse to reverse to obverse and back to reverse again (on Farthings anyway).

I would once again assume that such changes had been going on since the beginning, depending upon the whims of the current monarch.

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems perfectly logical and definitely plausible to me.
At the very least, it's something interesting to consider.

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · July 2, 2010 12:57AM

RobP, You're exactly right - Plausible, but not conclusive.

It's just that I had never heard nor seen any mention of this as fact or possibility. It was one of those "eureka" moments!

OK, I'll stop now. Time for bed.

OnlyBuffalos · July 2, 2010 6:37PM

From Wikipedia:

Though the Romans used a decimal system for whole numbers, reflecting how they counted in Latin, they used a duodecimal system for fractions, because the divisibility of twelve (12 = 3×2×2) makes it easier to handle the common fractions of 1/3 and 1/4 than does a system based on ten (10 = 2×5). On coins, many of which had values that were duodecimal fractions of the unit as, they used a tally-like notational system based on twelfths and halves. A dot • indicated an uncia "twelfth", the source of the English words inch and ounce; dots were repeated for fractions up to five twelfths. Six twelfths (one half) was abbreviated as the letter S for semis "half". Uncia dots were added to S for fractions from seven to eleven twelfths, just as tallies were added to V for whole numbers from six to nine.

Each of these fractions had a name, which was also the name of the corresponding coin:

Fraction Roman Numeral Name (nominative and genitive) Meaning
1/12 • uncia, unciae "ounce"
2/12 = 1/6 •• or : sextans, sextantis "sixth"
3/12 = 1/4 ••• or ∴ quadrans, quadrantis "quarter"
4/12 = 1/3 •••• or :: triens, trientis "third"
5/12 ••••• or :•: quincunx, quincuncis "five-ounce" (quinquae unciae → quincunx)
6/12 = 1/2 S semis, semissis "half"
7/12 S• septunx, septuncis "seven-ounce" (septem unciae → septunx)
8/12 = 2/3 S•• or S: bes, bessis "twice" (as in "twice a third")
9/12 = 3/4 S••• or S:• dodrans, dodrantis
or nonuncium, nonuncii "less a quarter" (de-quadrans → dodrans)
or "ninth ounce" (nona uncia → nonuncium)
10/12 = 5/6 S•••• or S:: dextans, dextantis
or decunx, decuncis "less a sixth" (de-sextans → dextans)
or "ten ounces" (decem unciae → decunx)
11/12 S••••• or S:•: deunx, deuncis "less an ounce" (de-uncia → deunx)
12/12 = 1 I as, assis "unit"

The arrangement of the dots was variable and not necessarily linear. Five dots arranged like :·: (as on dice faces &#9860

are known as a quincunx from the name of the Roman fraction/coin. The Latin words sextans and quadrans are the source of the English words sextant and quadrant.

Other Roman fractions include:

1/8 sescuncia, sescunciae (from sesqui- + uncia, i.e. 1½ uncias), represented by a sequence of the symbols for the semuncia and the uncia.
1/24 semuncia, semunciae (from semi- + uncia, i.e. ½ uncia), represented by several variant glyphs deriving from the shape of Greek letter sigma Σ, one variant resembling the pound sign £ without the horizontal line(s) and another resembling Cyrillic letter Є.
1/36 binae sextulae, binarum sextularum ("two sextulas") or duella, duellae, represented by a sequence of two reversed S.
1/48 sicilicus, sicilici, represented by a reversed C.
1/72 sextula, sextulae (1/6 of an uncia), represented by a reversed S.
1/144 dimidia sextula, dimidiae sextulae ("half a sextula"), represented by a reversed S crossed by a horizontal line.
1/288 scripulum, scripuli, represented by a symbol resembling Cyrillic letter Э.
1/1728 siliqua, siliquae, represented by a symbol resembling closing guillemets ».

Still learning interesting little tidbits. I love this hobby!

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