Card Merchants: New "Opened Case" Scheme Could Crash Your Business
storm888
Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
eBay's Opened-Case Policy Is a No-Win for Sellers
By Ina Steiner
AuctionBytes.com
May 03, 2010
Editorial: eBay's Opened-Case Policy Is a No-Win for Sellers
eBay's new policy on Opened Cases flies in the face of common sense. In fact, I wonder sometimes if eBay has a psychologist on staff advising them of how to demoralize their sellers.
Beginning in September, eBay will count the number of customer claims that are opened against a seller, no matter how the case is ultimately resolved.
Post office lost the package? eBay provided the incorrect shipping address? A zero-feedback newbie expected the package 5 minutes after pressing the Buy button?
It doesn't matter whose fault it is or how the seller responds, any time a buyer opens a claim, it goes on the seller's record as a black mark.
Accumulate too many "opened cases," and you are kicked out of the Top Rated Sellers program. A few more, and your items are demoted in search. And should you rack up enough claims, your account will be suspended (eBay won't reveal the actual percentage of claims that would result in the ultimate punishment.)
It begs the question, why should sellers do the right thing for buyers once the policy is put in place?
It's worth noting that, either way, with this new policy, eBay saves money. If the Opened Cases rate stays the same, fewer sellers are eligible for discounts. And if there is a reduction in Opened Cases, eBay saves on customer-service costs.
That's why you'll hear eBay employees urging sellers to do what it takes to avoid open claims. "A buyer needing to open up a claim is the ultimate form of dissatisfaction," they parrot.
eBay became a minefield for sellers ever since eBay took away their ability to leave negative or neutral feedback for their customers. eBay's constant changes; tantalizing sellers with monetary rewards for achieving increasingly difficult-to-achieve standards; the threats of punishment for failing to conform (loss of PowerSeller or TRS status, demotions in search, account suspension); they have all led sellers down the path to this latest Kafkaesque policy.
In case you've become desensitized over the course of this surreal multi-year campaign, the message to eBay sellers is this: you can't win.
link
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Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
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Run away I've got to
Get away
From the pain that you drive into the heart of me
The love we share
Seems to go nowhere
And I've lost my light
For I toss and turn I can't sleep at night
(chorus)
Once I ran to you (I ran)
Now I'll run from you
This tainted love you've given
I give you all a boy could give you
Take my tears and that's not nearly all
Oh...tainted love
Tainted love
Now I know I've got to
Run away I've got to
Get away
You don't really want IT any more from me
To make things right
You need someone to hold you tight
And you'LL think love is to pray
But I'm sorry I don't pray that way
(chorus...)
Don't touch me please
I cannot stand the way you tease
I love you though you hurt me so
Now I'm going to pack my things and go
Tainted love, tainted love (x2)
Touch me baby, tainted love (x2)
Tainted love (x3)
I can get mad at ebay, mad at the dummies who still patronize ebay, mad at everything....
or I can just sit back and laugh.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1one
Steve
There is just no end to this is there? Quite honestly, if Ebay isn't your lifeblood but it can be useful for you, the best thing to do is to maintain a moderate presence there and try and move your stuff elsewhere. It is absolutely inane what they are doing. It almost seems as if they are...........the...................
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Of course Ebay isn't my livelihood but I would think that if it is your primary business that it would be THAT much more important to provide the best service. I know that there are extreme circumstances that a seller cannot help but surely a call to ebay would resolve any such matter, especially if tracking info. can be proven.
<< <i>ship your items on time w/delivery confirmation, provide good customer service, and do what you say you are going to do and there shouldn't be a need for an open case against you. I've NEVER had someone open a case against me.
Of course Ebay isn't my livelihood but I would think that if it is your primary business that it would be THAT much more important to provide the best service. I know that there are extreme circumstances that a seller cannot help but surely a call to ebay would resolve any such matter, especially if tracking info. can be proven. >>
That would be all well and good if eBay was a place without spiteful jerks.
<< <i>Sometimes I feel I've got to
Run away I've got to
Get away
From the pain that you drive into the heart of me
The love we share
Seems to go nowhere
And I've lost my light
For I toss and turn I can't sleep at night
(chorus)
Once I ran to you (I ran)
Now I'll run from you
This tainted love you've given
I give you all a boy could give you
Take my tears and that's not nearly all
Oh...tainted love
Tainted love
Now I know I've got to
Run away I've got to
Get away
You don't really want IT any more from me
To make things right
You need someone to hold you tight
And you'LL think love is to pray
But I'm sorry I don't pray that way
(chorus...)
Don't touch me please
I cannot stand the way you tease
I love you though you hurt me so
Now I'm going to pack my things and go
Tainted love, tainted love (x2)
Touch me baby, tainted love (x2)
Tainted love (x3) >>
Did you post that since it's one of their birthdays today...
<< <i>
<< <i>ship your items on time w/delivery confirmation, provide good customer service, and do what you say you are going to do and there shouldn't be a need for an open case against you. I've NEVER had someone open a case against me.
Of course Ebay isn't my livelihood but I would think that if it is your primary business that it would be THAT much more important to provide the best service. I know that there are extreme circumstances that a seller cannot help but surely a call to ebay would resolve any such matter, especially if tracking info. can be proven. >>
That would be all well and good if eBay was a place without spiteful jerks. >>
yeah, I can see how a few clowns might change my feeling toward it. I've only opened one case against someone as a buyer and it was against a well known bigger seller who took almost 4 weeks to ship my cards and didn't answer several emails and messages from me. Not naming any names, but TriplePlayVintage.
<< <i>Did you post that since it's one of their birthdays today... >>
nope. just seemed to fit the topic.
"...surely a call to ebay would resolve any such matter,..."
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The mere filing of an INR or SNAD claim will cause some sellers
to lose their TRS rating.
If a buyer orders four cards and each card is shipped separately
to avoid possible PayPal fraud, either a fraudulent/legitimate/error
filing on the four items would likely result in a NARU decision; each
filing will be counted as a separate event.
Diamond Sellers under contract will remain exempt from DSR
problems AND the new "opened case" scheme.
The obvious goal of the "change" is to eliminate as many fee
discounts as possible. This will allow several quarters of boosted
numbers, without a fee hike.
The penalties are based on filings, NOT on "reasons" for filings.
A call to EBAY on the issue will NOT "resolve" anything.
..............
"...Do they not realize they make their money from sellers and not buyers. There is no way they're profits are rising after these horrific decisions one after the other...."
///////////////////////////////////////////////
ALL money comes from buyers; not sellers.
By 2011/12, 70% to 80% of EBAY's money will be generated
by sundry PayPal endeavors. But, if PP is regulated under pending
financial reform measures, the outfit may eventually cease to earn
much in America. (Currently about half of their take comes from
foreign operations.)
PP is now a virtually unregulated "financial services" company. They
operate like a bank, but have NO restrictions on their "bank like"
activities.
............
<< <i>"...Do they not realize they make their money from sellers and not buyers. There is no way they're profits are rising after these horrific decisions one after the other...."
///////////////////////////////////////////////
ALL money comes from buyers; not sellers.
By 2011/12, 70% to 80% of EBAY's money will be generated
by sundry PayPal endeavors. But, if PP is regulated under pending
financial reform measures, the outfit may eventually cease to earn
much in America. (Currently about half of their take comes from
foreign operations.)
PP is now a virtually unregulated "financial services" company. They
operate like a bank, but have NO restrictions on their "bank like"
activities.
............ >>
What would buyers be buying if nothing was listed by sellers. Less listings equals less money for eBay. I don't see how buyers make eBay money at all, eBay doesn't sell anything. Completely catering to the buyer is making it tougher for sellers, who will in-turn list less and use eBay less meaning less money for eBay.
Say, for argument's sake, that I'm a scumbag. But not a card-buying scumbag. Just a general scumbag.
I go around ebay buying certain high value things like motorcycle carbs, porcelain dishware, rare CDs (say for example a signed Johnny Cash CD). Things that unlike cards, lack specific attributes like a date produced, serial number, etc.
Each seller I buy from is honest: they send me the carbs, dishware, a real nice signed CD. I, in turn, open a SNAD with each seller. Why? Because I'm betting that when I pull the old switcheroo and send back a pitted and clogged motorcycle carb, or a smashed dish I bought for 25 cents at Goodwill, or a scratched Toby Keith CD, there will be no way for the seller to prove that what they sent me isn't what I'm sending back. There is the slim chance that the seller will have videoed themselves putting the actual item into a sealed box, but the odds are with me. Add to that the probability that many of them will just refund my money to keep me quiet and/or maintain their high rated status. They can't neg me but I can neg them if they raise a peep, right?
How long do I get away with this and how do I finally get stopped (besides someone coming to my house with a gun)? I'm curious because I (Mr Walnut) was the victim of this as a seller a couple of years ago and that's when I quit ebaying. I really haven't kept up on the latest scam news like storm has and this may have been supplanted by other types of scams. What sayeth the great storm and/or anyone else?
for a bidder to bid on my items, they need perfect recent feedback as a buyer....
and offer NO LOW BALL BIDS...A LOW BALL BID EQUALS BLOCKED BIDDER in my book
<< <i>i will cancel any bidder that has a a history of leaving ONE negative....i wont let them bid PERIOD
for a bidder to bid on my items, they need perfect recent feedback as a buyer....
and offer NO LOW BALL BIDS...A LOW BALL BID EQUALS BLOCKED BIDDER in my book >>
Is there a way to block bidders who have LEFT negative feedback? I probably wouldn't want to do that. A lot of sellers deserve negative feedback, so to block someone for leaving them NF seems a little harsh.
"....What would buyers be buying if nothing was listed by sellers? Less listings equals less money for eBay. I don't see how buyers make eBay money at all. eBay doesn't sell anything. Completely catering to the buyer is making it tougher for sellers, who will in-turn list less and use eBay less meaning less money for eBay. ...."
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
With 105,000,000 listings, EBAY can easily afford to lose 50%
of them. STRs would soar, the BIG sellers would prosper, small
sellers would gain page-views/sales, and EBAY would earn more
in FVFs and PP fees.
The BIG contract sellers offer listing-count guarantees; not listing
fees. Small sellers - under current pricing trends - will soon be
paying less upfront, too. FVFs and PP fees are where EBAY's
future bucks will come from; both are generated by buyers.
Buyers are the ONLY commodity that generate funds for EBAY.
Sellers - even BIG ones - are totally expendable.
EBAY believes - rightfully so - that they own ALL traffic to their
site. They will crush any seller who has a different view. Sellers
are easy to find for the space leader; buyers are FAR less plentiful.
Traffic to AMZN is soaring. Traffic to EBAY continues to decline. The
fight between the two is about buyers; sellers are virtually irrelevant
to the process.
It's a war and ALL dead sellers are less than collateral damage.
...........
Meanwhile, PayPal contiues to sign contracts with Asian and European
banks and credit providers that make it easy to link the accounts of
BILLIONS of potential foreign buyers to PayPal/EBAY.
"...How long do I get away with this and how do I finally get stopped (besides someone coming to my house with a gun)?..."
/////////////////////////////////////////////
You can "get away" with it forever.
The way that the PayPal "buyer protection" scheme works
allows mentally ill "buyers" to rationalize their crimes. MANY
actually think that PayPal is refunding the stolen money; they
think they are stealing from PayPal, not from the little sellers.
On EBAY, any PayPal transaction is VERY risky for the seller.
It is best not to list anything you cannot afford to lose.
Off-EBAY, PayPal is really quite safe. Proof of delivery is all
that is required to vex ANY PP-claim.
<< <i>Traffic to AMZN is soaring. Traffic to EBAY continues to decline. The fight between the two is about buyers; sellers are virtually irrelevant to the process. >>
Does ebay really think they can compete or at least gain market share on amazon? Seems like a foolish idea.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>If AMZN ever decides to create a true auction site, either under the AMZN name or some other name fully supported with AMZN infrastructure and bucks, it's game over for Ebay. >>
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
AMZN really does not want the hassle of dealing with EBAY-trained
sellers. They certainly would not risk putting their reputation in the
hands of such sellers.
I personally know MANY EBAY sellers. My WAG is that fewer than
10% of them could "get with the program" at AMZN.
AMZN runs an airtight ship. There is ZERO tolerance for mistakes
or messing around with buyers' rights and reasonable expectations.
....................
The smart and equity-based remedy for EBAY sellers is simple:
EBAY needs to establish a new set of policies for sellers that offer
used merch and collectibles.
JD disagrees. NO fix is possible until JD makes his golden-parachute
exit. That exit is not at hand, but it is not too far off; he just needs
a small opportunity to declare "victory" and run with the money.
Doesn't this just open the door for more Paypal/EBAY Buyer Fraud?
Meanwhile, PayPal contiues to sign contracts with Asian and European
banks and credit providers that make it easy to link the accounts of
BILLIONS of potential foreign buyers to PayPal/EBAY.
Neil
<< <i>Ain't no business. I told ebay to take my Top Seller status and stick it when they changed the store stuff. Then my dad closed his store too. I'd rather wipe my butt with my cards than deal with their crap. I'll be a buyer (occasionally), but not a seller anymore. >>
I don't really understand this. Do you stay up late at night fretting about new Ebay policies?
How about just not caring what Ebay does. Sell your items, get money and buy new stuff. Be the best at what you can do and provide and not worry about the rest.
<< <i>"...How long do I get away with this and how do I finally get stopped (besides someone coming to my house with a gun)?..."
/////////////////////////////////////////////
You can "get away" with it forever.
The way that the PayPal "buyer protection" scheme works
allows mentally ill "buyers" to rationalize their crimes. >>
I dont see how they can keep getting away with it. Whats the use in paying monkeys in the claims/investigation dept if they always side with the crook? Youd think after 2 or 3 fraudelant disputes, paypal/ebay would catch on and award the dispute to the innocent seller.
"...Youd think after 2 or 3 fraudelant disputes, paypal/ebay would catch on and award the dispute to the innocent seller...."
//////////////////////////////////////
A seller-disputed claim - decided against the seller - is a
profit-center for PP/EBAY.
The seller cannot get a refund of FVFs, loses his listing
fees, slips out of discount range, and may get hit with
a $15+ PP "processing fee."
IF a crooked "buyer" is ever caught, he simply opens a
new account and starts the cycle again.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ain't no business. I told ebay to take my Top Seller status and stick it when they changed the store stuff. Then my dad closed his store too. I'd rather wipe my butt with my cards than deal with their crap. I'll be a buyer (occasionally), but not a seller anymore. >>
I don't really understand this. Do you stay up late at night fretting about new Ebay policies?
How about just not caring what Ebay does. Sell your items, get money and buy new stuff. Be the best at what you can do and provide and not worry about the rest. >>
Here here. I grossed just south of 90K in card sales on Ebay last year, and I am always the last to know if any Ebay changes. Whether they bump my fees by $50 a month, or force me to wrangle with one more idiot a month than I did back when sellers could leave feedback, simply doesn't matter to me-- or, I think, to the business I conduct online.
And speaking only for myself, if a dumb honest hippie fraud investigator can figure out a way to beat the system, that probably means that the guys in the know are light years ahead of me. Add that to storm's excellent point that ebay (I'm paraphrasing) is like the mob; they don't care if starving babies are being effed out of their milk money as long as it pads the bottom line and I'd venture that I'm voting with the bloc that says hell yes, we do care! And to the poster above (name I can't recall) who noted that there might in fact be trained monkeys staffing the ebay 'fraud' department: that is ostensibly the difference between ostensibly regulated commerce originating here in the US of A and a poker game in Tony Soprano's garbage hauling office. You'd like to think that you're getting a fair shake but the facts, as a combat-dodging liar once said, are silly things.
Mickey71
///////////////////////////////////////////
PP's "buyer protection" pays for such losses.
The scheme is funded by the balance in the seller's account.
If the seller's account is empty, PP will attempt to piggyback
the debit on any EBAY fee payments that are linked to the
seller's "backup" funding source.
If piggybacking fails - and the seller refuses to pay the deficit
balance - PP sends the bill to collection agents.
PP always pays for such claims, regardless of their success
in recouping the cash from the seller.
Whether such claims are legit or not, PP will honor
buyer demands. THAT makes using PP on EBAY - for large
money items - a HUGE risk for sellers.
(PP offers no "buyer protection" in off-EBAY transactions.
THAT makes PP a safe bet for both honest and dishonest
sellers.)
.............
"...I once had a buyer who bought a graded card and was not happy with it. It was a high dollar card and he filed a pp claim. i refused the refund and upon review, pp decided in my favor so pp does not always rule in favor of the buyer...."
/////////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
It is still difficult for buyers to make a legit claim that a TPGd item is SNAD.
Not impossible, but difficult.
The remedy used by many buyers is simply to crack the case and claim the
item arrived "SNAD."