Does PSA DNA guarantee game used authentication?

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 8:53AM

Does anyone know if PSA DNA stands behind their authentication? The reason I am asking is I just purchased a 2006-2007 Manny Ramirez game used bat with a PSA DNA letter. But
after showing it to folks who know Manny bats, they are saying Manny never used this brand of bat in a game. So I have been doing some research and have found ZERO pictures of Manny
even holding this brand of bat, never mind using it.

So I'm in a quandary here. I don't believe that Ebay or Paypal will help me because of the PSA letter and the seller does not offer refunds. And besides, I just don't think this bat should be passed off as game used by Manny when the chances of him actually using it are non existent.

Should I contact PSA and see what they will do? Or am I stuck with a bat that is not what it seems? I purchased it with confidence that the PSA cert was solid, but after looking around, I do believe a mistake was made.

thenavarro · February 13, 2010 9:10AM

Wouldn't hurt to try to call them and see if you can get any relief, but since they issue a sliding scale on whether or not an item is game used, then I doubt you will get any relief. Pretty much all of their grading standards for bats leave open the possibility that an item is NOT game used. I know on autographs, their is no "guarantee" per se, just an opinion that they don't necessarily stand behind, so I imagine that bats are the same way.

Mike

jimq112 · February 13, 2010 9:18AM

I would suggest gathering all the information you can and then emailing Joe. Also keep all information related to your purchase.

I can say positively from personal experience that PSA/DNA stands behind their autograph authentication.

Stone193 · February 13, 2010 9:31AM

Steve

Have you asked either John of JT Sports or Zanebats on ebay?

Both these guys have been around a long time and I've bought from both.

Maybe they can give you some insight?
mike

edit: I'm wondering if - perhaps - he used the bat during spring training - to try it out?

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 9:37AM

Mike,

I am in contact with John as we speak. I emailed him my concerns and he replied back basically asking what their reasons were and if any of them had seen every at bat of Mannys from those years. He makes a good point there, but I am still spooked by the lack of any photos of Manny using this brand of bat. I feel a bit guilty questioning John (it's his name signed to the coa), but like I said to him, I just want to make sure it is 100% legit.

Jim, I will keep a copy of everything....just in case.

I would just feel better if I knew for sure he used this brand at least once before it was authenticated. I guess I will just keep looking at photos and cross my fingers.

Stone193 · February 13, 2010 10:35AM

Steve

What's the brand of the bat you have?

mike

vladguerrero · February 13, 2010 10:42AM

i'm guessing route 66 or X-Bat or something like that, there's a ton of bad Vlad stuff from certain companies...

Stone193 · February 13, 2010 10:49AM

I was looking on one of the mem boards and this is a list of bats this guy has for sale and says they're good:

05 Mash Bat(autographed) cracked/repaired awesome Manny use!(Richard Bond LOA)
02-03 Old Hickory MR1 uncracked Awesome Manny use!(PSA/DNA LOA)
04-06 Louisville M9 S318(Mannys prefered model) uncracked Awesome Manny use
01 Carolina Clubs cracked/repaired Pine tar on handle and centerbrand.The most seam marks i have ever seen on a barrel.Marks cover entire barell so i would list this bat as game used/BP(Richard Bond LOA)
02-04 Mizuno Pro uncracked definite Manny use(lighter use than the rest)
95-96 Louisville I13 cracked/repaired awesome Manny use!

I don't know if this is accurate.

mike

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 10:51AM

It's a Nokona.

vladguerrero · February 13, 2010 11:03AM

I'm not familiar enough on the Manny issue but many of these smaller bat manufacturers are willing to add players names to bats (which they are not authorized by the MLBPA to do), ex. I could order a couple bats with Manny Ramirez on them, this is part of the reason why legit companies like Same Bat do so well. JT knows his stuff and I would accept his opinion over 'Manny guys'. That said at best it's a oddball Manny gamer and you may be happier selling it and paying more for a LVS, I would contact the seller and just say you aren't happy with it and see what they say, maybe even offer a "re-stocking fee".

ezyshooter · February 13, 2010 11:12AM

I don't think PSA/DNA authorizes game used. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that a PSA/DNA letter only authenticates the signature. Not the game used portion. So i can buy a bat and make it look used. Then get whoever autographing this bat, and even take a picture of him signing it and poof !! I have a game used bat. I'm sure that PSA/DNA does not do this type of service.
Cheers, Steve

csmtampa · February 13, 2010 11:17AM

<< I don't think PSA/DNA authorizes game used. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that a PSA/DNA letter only authenticates the signature. Not the game used portion. So i can buy a bat and make it look used. Then get whoever autographing this bat, and even take a picture of him signing it and poof !! I have a game used bat. I'm sure that PSA/DNA does not do this type of service.
Cheers, Steve >>

They do authenticate game used bats. John Taube is the authenticator for this service.

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 11:19AM

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to find that info and pics. It seems that Manny uses a variety of bats, not just LVS and SAM bats.

Vlad, I agree with you about believing JT instead of the other Manny "experts" I see posting. I guess I just got nervous and let unfounded worries start running wild. Considering what Mike
posted, I think you are correct with assuming it is just a Manny oddball bat as it seems he uses oddballs now and then.

Thanks for all the help and input guys.

ElToroLoco · February 13, 2010 11:20AM

I'm was curious about PSA/DNA authenticating equipment as being game used. I'm not sure they could do that unless the source was MLB or the player themselves. Otherwise, it would be pointless and based on provenance anyway. When I was young, I used a Johnny Bench and Roberto Clemente Louisville slugger bats for softball. That made them game used! (still wonder if they were store or player model bats). Anyhow, it's about following the bat from player to source....

vladguerrero · February 13, 2010 12:40PM

<< Vlad, I agree with you about believing JT instead of the other Manny "experts" I see posting. I guess I just got nervous and let unfounded worries start running wild. >>

I was very surprised when I learned that players pay for their own bats and subsequently many do use free trial bats or go with the 'cheaper' off brands than shell out $100 per Sam Bat or slightly less for LVS. Although, most fans wouldn't think that's even close to being on a players mind (cost of bats) it goes to show that many players don't feel that specific equipment makes them any better. I have spoken to pro athletes about this and as I said was very surprised.

Stone193 · February 13, 2010 12:50PM

While we're talking - I have a Vlad GU that's from ASI - it's an X-bat - with only light to mod use - no stitch marks - can't remember who I bought it from?

For all I know - the batboy used it.

mike

JoeOrlando · February 13, 2010 1:03PM

PSA/DNA does offer a service that offers opinions on game-used bats and has for quite some time.

Evaluating the labeling of the bat, shipping records, etc is the first step because much of where the value comes from (especially on vintage gamers) is determining whether the bat is a professional model that is consistent with the player's ordering records, habits. Pro bats are clearly distinguishable from store model bats, etc.

The second part is looking at the specific player and game use characteristics on the bat...this is where great bats are generally distinguished from the rest. It is the bat expert's job to know the different characteristics for each player. Some are unique like a particular taping method (Duke Snider, Ty Cobb, Jorge Posada, etc) while others are more generic.

There is a lot that goes into this process, perhaps as much or more than any other authentication process in the hobby.

If members ever have any questions, please email me directly at joe@collectors.com or John Taube at jtbats@aol.com.

Take care,

Joe

CoinRuckus · February 13, 2010 3:01PM

<< I emailed him my concerns and he replied back basically asking what their reasons were and if any of them had seen every at bat of Mannys from those years. >>

Those are questions I think should be asked to John, instead of John asking them.

Stone193 · February 13, 2010 3:04PM

<< It's a Nokona. >>

Just thinking Steve - it wouldn't hurt to ask John what is his "source" for authenticating a Nokona as GU by Manny.

mike

csmtampa · February 13, 2010 7:59PM

Manny Ramirez Nokonas bats have been widely discussed over on GUU.

One of the top Manny game used collectors wont buy one, so that should tell you something.

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 10:28PM

<< Manny Ramirez Nokonas bats have been widely discussed over on GUU.

One of the top Manny game used collectors wont buy one, so that should tell you something. >>

That is exactly why I started asking questions, not to cause any problems. I understand that John Taube is an expert and I hold him in high regard. But I also know there are some collectors
who focus pretty much on one player and know incredible amounts of information on that player and I consider them as much of an expert in regards to that player. And if that collector
questions my item, I listen.

I have spent a few hours now searching various web sites looking for a picture of Manny holding a Nokona bat to no avail. If I could just find one picture, it would put the issue to rest for me.
I have seen tons of LVS and other type bats, but no Nokona. I have also posed John's questions to the folks over at GUU to see what responses I get.

Thank you to Mr. Orlando for jumping in on this thread, it's nice to see that the top brass does read these threads and cares enough to reply. I will drop Mr. Orlando an email as soon as I get a bit more information.

Ironmanfan · February 13, 2010 11:20PM

I would ask Taube what information he has that shows Manny using that brand bat (he had to come to his conclusion somehow).......You may also want to post your concerns on the Game Used Forum (www.gameusedforum.com)...Perhaps a member there has a picture or can lend some more opinions....

Ironmanfan · February 13, 2010 11:24PM

I'd open a PayPal claim too before it's too late

Tedw9 · February 13, 2010 11:28PM

Ironmanfan,

That is where I got my information from and I started a thread there yesterday.

I've debated on a Paypal claim as it is not the sellers fault. As I have said, if this is not a Manny bat, I would rather get it off the market rather than return it and see someone else buy it.

I think I have 45 days to open a claim, correct?

Ironmanfan · February 13, 2010 11:47PM

Ted: I am sorry, I didn't realize you had already posted there

Opening a PayPal claim would have to force someone's hand to show Manny using that brand bat......

You won't be getting a refund from PSA (as Mike Navarro stated)

Tedw9 · February 14, 2010 12:14AM

My only worry opening a Paypal claim is that Paypal will side with the seller because the bat is PSA authenticated. And if I lose the Paypal claim, I would be stuck with it if PSA does not stand
behind it either.

I guess I will talk with Mr. Orlando first and get his input before I open a claim.

vladguerrero · February 14, 2010 12:22AM

<< While we're talking - I have a Vlad GU that's from ASI - it's an X-bat - with only light to mod use - no stitch marks - can't remember who I bought it from?

For all I know - the batboy used it.

mike >>

If it's from asi I'm sure Vlad owned it, and at least he used X-Bats, as you said it's just a matter of how much game use you like. A lot of the legit X-Bats show light use, esthetically they are a very nice bat though. X-Bats is one of the companies that was pumping out a questionable number of "issued" bats... it's pretty bad when "game used" Guerrero X-Bats are showing up on Ebay in sizes and weights he's NEVER used.

Does PSA DNA guarantee game used authentication?

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