Bidder Alert: 1977 Baseball Rack w/Dawson Rookie on top--is it legit...or counterfeit?
summerof68
Posts: 748 ✭
Currently on ebay there is a 1977 Topps baseball rack pack with Andre Dawson's rookie card on top. What's peculiar about this rack is that is has a 1978/1979 era (.59 cent) header card.
In all my years viewing vintage packs this is the (very first) '77 Topps baseball rack I have seen having any header other than the correct (.49 cent) header.
Towards the end of the '77 baseball season Topps began printing newly designed rack headers for the upcoming football season. This was in response to Topps deciding to raise the price of the football racks for the upcoming '77 season by .10 cents totaling .59 cents. These newly designed football headers are the same header that is found in this '77 Dawson rack.
Since '77 baseball racks & '77 football racks were being produced at the same time near the end of the baseball season it is conceivable that some .59 cent '77 football headers could have mistakingly found their way into some .49 cent baseball racks.
And after all why would someone spend all the time & effort necessary to "make" a counterfeit '77 bb rack when they only bring $65 to $75 on ebay. But then again this is no common '77 rack. This rack has the most desireable card in the set right on top. And a recent addition to the Hall-Of-Fame no less!
Had there been just common players visible on this rack I would have just chalked it up to a factory mishap. But with Dawson on top the value of this rack jumps dramatically and considering this is the very first '77 bb rack I've ever seen with an incorrect header I felt compelled to bring this to the attention of potential bidders so they can draw their own conclusions!
1977 Topps rack pack w/ Dawson rookie on top. Ebay listing#360229255284
I've included a picture of an authentic '77 rack below:
In all my years viewing vintage packs this is the (very first) '77 Topps baseball rack I have seen having any header other than the correct (.49 cent) header.
Towards the end of the '77 baseball season Topps began printing newly designed rack headers for the upcoming football season. This was in response to Topps deciding to raise the price of the football racks for the upcoming '77 season by .10 cents totaling .59 cents. These newly designed football headers are the same header that is found in this '77 Dawson rack.
Since '77 baseball racks & '77 football racks were being produced at the same time near the end of the baseball season it is conceivable that some .59 cent '77 football headers could have mistakingly found their way into some .49 cent baseball racks.
And after all why would someone spend all the time & effort necessary to "make" a counterfeit '77 bb rack when they only bring $65 to $75 on ebay. But then again this is no common '77 rack. This rack has the most desireable card in the set right on top. And a recent addition to the Hall-Of-Fame no less!
Had there been just common players visible on this rack I would have just chalked it up to a factory mishap. But with Dawson on top the value of this rack jumps dramatically and considering this is the very first '77 bb rack I've ever seen with an incorrect header I felt compelled to bring this to the attention of potential bidders so they can draw their own conclusions!
1977 Topps rack pack w/ Dawson rookie on top. Ebay listing#360229255284
I've included a picture of an authentic '77 rack below:
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
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Comments
<< <i>But with Dawson on top the value of this rack jumps dramatically and considering this is the very first '77 bb rack I've ever seen with an incorrect header I felt compelled to bring this to the attention of potential bidders so they can draw their own conclusions! >>
And since he ws just elected to the HOF, I am inclined to agree with you.
He's got a pretty good feedback score, and while it means less than before, it's still something to consider.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
The main thrust of my post is that the rack contains the incorrect header card. This combined with the fact that (just by coincidence) it also contains the most desireable card in the set on top is what makes the authenticity of this rack questionable. Dawson being recently elected to the Hall adds additional demand and value to this rack which would serve as extra incentive to a counterfeiter.
Let me also add that I am not in any way implying that the seller of this rack "made" this rack. I am directing my comments only to the rack itself as it exist in it's current state. The seller himself most likely is not aware of the uniqueness of this rack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Both are sporting old school 'Stros unis. That alone increases the value at least 20, maybe 30 fold!
Lots of interesting observations there and when it comes to racks its very difficult to determine seal tampering unless you have it at your fingertips.
With regards to contacting the seller for additional pictures I'd prefer not to pursue it further. I simply wanted to bring to the attention of possible buyers on this board the significance of the header and the sheer coincidence of Dawson being on top. They can pursue it further if they so desire.
Valid point. But it's also possible this seller was purchasing Dawson racks in the past with the aniticipation that he would make the Hall. He could of unknowingly purchased a possibly "bad" rack and is now selling it at the same time he is selling Dawson racks from other years.
The timing of this rack's appearance or what other racks the seller is currently listing doesn't seem as important to me as the fact that this rack contains the wrong header. And in seven years of seeing hundreds of '77 baseball racks on ebay and other major auction houses I, as with grote15, have never seen one with a '78-'79 era header.
And again the fact that this exceptionally rare packaging variation has (coincidentally) occurred in conjuction with the most desireable card showing on top cannot be ignored.
For the benefit of we the uneducated what does "Stros unis" translate to?
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>Just for the record, the seller said he is pulling the pack after Steve Hart confirmed that 1977 baseball racks were indeed 49 cents and that he had never seen one with a 59 cent header. >>
good for him
<< <i>Barry is referring to the old-school rainbowed Astros uniforms. >>
Winner, winner chicken dinner!
Thanks for taking the initiative to contact the seller informing him as to the unique peculiarity of his rack.
None of us know for sure if the rack is legit or not until we have it in our hands for inspection.
As buyers on ebay we have only pictures to rely upon so it behooves us to call upon our experience, instincts and common sense when we see "aberations" and "coincidences" that raise red flags.
If this rack does turn out to be counterfeit then at least (for the time being) the actions of board members has prevented someone from throwing away their hard-earned money.
<< <i>None of us know for sure if the rack is legit or not until we have it in our hands for inspection. >>
Since the seller contacted Steve Hart and Steve confirmed that it is more than likely a fake, I have to say it is a fake. BTW, the seller says all the Dawson packs are consigned items.
---a "standard issue" response I have heard many, many times!
Good job boys
<< <i>
<< <i>None of us know for sure if the rack is legit or not until we have it in our hands for inspection. >>
Since the seller contacted Steve Hart and Steve confirmed that it is more than likely a fake, I have to say it is a fake. BTW, the seller says all the Dawson packs are consigned items. >>
But PSA says your Wilt Chamberlain auto is a fake and you put up a stink about it. Funny stuff.
Summer - you especially!
Thank you. It is primarily for the benefit of newer pack collectors that I occassionally chime in with my thoughts concerning the validity of a particular pack on ebay.
When I first began buying ebay packs years ago I was burned by counterfeiters several times and wasn't even aware of it. And there was nowhere I could turn to learn the hobby. So out of anger I began carefully studying (every) ebay vintage pack listing that appeared nightly. I began bothering Hart and others with a never ending stream of questions.
In the movie "Josie Wales" Clint Eastwood had a famous line, "there are two types of people in the world--those who carry a loaded gun and those who dig." Well in my early days of buying packs I did alot of "digging". Now I carry the gun!!!
<< <i>Actually the plastic on the 77 racks football and baseball in my opinion is significantly better quality. I have handled many of these and they keep their shape, color etc much better than for example 76 or 75 racks which seem to all be somewhat brittle and yellow. I do have a 77 Rack with Dawson and a Schmidt face up on back. I will scan tonight if possible. I really like 77 racks I have one withe a Reggie on top as well. This discussion regarding the header card I believe is right on. The header cards should have that orange and black color, not the green that is typically on 78 and 79 baseball racks >>
I agree with Dand5...., Topps changed to a thinner, lighter, shiner plastic with 1977 raks. None of mine from 1977 thru 1979 have curled or yellowed, they all look like they were made yesterday.
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
I have a few questions. When I was a kid I would get wax packs at the store and open them right there. I would open the packs very carefully, after I viewed the cards I would put the cards right back and fold the pack exactly like it came on the creases.
This does not seem incredibly difficult to do and then reseal the pack. How can anyone and I mean anyone know if a pack has been resealed? I would never feel comfortable with this.
How do the crooks reseal the packs? Maybe we can get 85% of ebay sellers to answer this question.
Thanks in advance for the responses.
Topps 1977 FB rack on ebay
You'll need to go back and read the details in my opening post. In it I outlined how (all) '77 football racks have .59 cent headers because after the '77 baseball season Topps increased the price of their racks .10 cents and changed the color scheme of the header as well.
Your concerns about wax packs being very easy to reseal is the very reason people should NOT buy raw vintage wax on ebay unless they know and trust the seller. And not only trust the seller but trust in the seller's knowledge to determine whether or not a wax pack is legit. Many (ethical) sellers on ebay sell packs that they truly feel are legit but they lack the knowledge to make an absolute determination one way or the other.
When it comes to wax packs there are two main characteristics that an authenticator will focus his attention on:
(1) An authentic wax pack will have (most generally) "factory tight" corner folds.
(2) and MOST importantly a wax pack must exhibit undisturbed, perfectly aligned factory "roller lines".
Personally I also look at the outline of the gum (if unbroken) to determine whether or not the "correct" sized gum is in the pack. Topps used different sized gum in different eras so I always look to make sure the gum is correct. Many pack counterfeiters (people who create packs from scratch) unknowingly add the wrong sized gum thereby giving away the pack's true character.
and this one...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Seller actually sent me an email saying he had a significant off eBay offer for the pack and is going to sell it.
I asked if he was willing to risk his reputation by selling a pack that was proven by many, including Steve Hart, to be a fake. He said of course he is and asked what would I do. Then he says Steve Hart does not know everything about every pack. This of course was after he previously said he would not sell it if Steve said it was a fake and he respects Steve's opinion as the foremost expert on packs/boxes.
Gotta love his hobby integrity. According to him it is a consigned item so his profit would be minimal.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.