Was there ever any discussion about this on these boards?
RonBurgundy
Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
Found this while poking around SCD. I've never heard of someone being so open about being a card doctor.
The SCD crew couldn’t detect his procedures on cards they sent him. He claims the grading companies can’t detect the procedures, either.
Yet Gone With the Stain owner Dick Towle still catches flack from collectors. Whether he’s taking off an ugly water stain, fountain pen ink or glue residue from a card, there are people out there who don’t believe his stain removal process is ethical. Some think it’s good for the hobby, while others consider it borderline taboo.
I recently did an interview with Towle about his controversial procedure for my Gavel Chat blog (gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com), and thought readers of the publication would be as intrigued with this topic as our online readers were.
Sports Collectors Digest: Tell us about your company and how you got started.
Dick Towle: About 15 years ago, I had developed a process and took about two years of research and showed it to some prominent dealers who saw one of my processes for removing Scotch tape from a card that he (originally) said couldn’t be done. That bothered me, so I went back, knocked on his hotel room door, showed it to him and his partner and he said, “I can’t believe it.”
We developed the processes for removing Scotch tape and over the years we’ve increased that with cards that are glued into albums to remove the glue. We also do cards that have indents that shouldn’t be on there, or cards that have staining on the back of them. We’ve been doing it for 15 years, and work with many prominent dealers around the country, including some of the great people on the Network 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum, who I have as customers.
It’s quite a process. It’s evolved. My wife now has taken over a lot of my work, and my son. It’s a family business. I guess the bottom line is taking a card without adding anything to it, which to me is very, very illegal. But removing something that should not be on a card, and increasing the value. We’re non-sports and sports cards, and we’ve done quite a few different things for customers.
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.
SCD: Can you smell the chemicals on the card?
Towle: No. In fact, when I first started out, one of the prominent grading companies gave me cards as a test. And I did it for them, and they looked at the card and smelled the card and they said “There’s nothing here.” And I said, “Case closed.” That was really the launch pad right there.
SCD: What will happen to the cards that you’ve treated years from now? Are there been any long-term effects?
Towle: No, because again, I’m removing something that shouldn’t be on there. Now, there are people that will use lighter fluid to remove stains from cards. Well, it will work, but only on a short term because paper has moisture in it. The lighter fluid actually takes it out. That card becomes brittle like a credit card and can snap. That’s actually happened before. We did a Roberto Clemente card just to prove the case. It snapped. After about five days the card snapped in half, very brittle.
If you send me a card with a rounded corner, with an indent, you’re going to get the card back with the rounded corner, but the indent will be gone. Cards with stains, you’re going to get the stains removed.
People have asked me, “Do you tell the customer that the stain has been removed?” Well, 99 percent of my work is done for dealers and individual customers around the country. What they do with the card after that, I have no idea. But then again, if a card is already graded from a “4” to a “7,” that really tells the story.
I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.
SCD: Do you have any stories about very valuable cards that you’ve seen in graded-card holders that would have been really low graded if you wouldn’t have done your process on them?
Towle: Oh, yes. There was a complete Cracker Jack set. These cards were all glued in a book. They commissioned my company to remove the cards, remove the cards without damaging and remove the glue. We did them all. We got it all out. They sold for well in excess of $50,000. They actually ended up selling, all of those cards in PSA sleeves, for around $180,000.
That’s because there was nothing on the cards. The cards were fine.
I once got a Clemente rookie, and the customer wanted the stain out. I put it in the solvent, and noticed the card was very hard. That bothered me. I got it out of the solvent and had two pieces of the card in my hand. What it was, someone did a very masterful job. The card was perfectly torn in half, they glued it and then they put the non-florescent paint on the card. And they brought it together. We proved that somebody had tried to defraud this customer.
When I do a lot of cards, I’ll see sometimes that a card has been painted because the solvent will actually take the paint off the cards. So somebody buys a beautiful card and asks me to take out an indent. I’ll put it in the solvent and I’ll look and see the tip of the card. And all of a sudden I’ll see the color come off. I say ‘Well I got good news and bad news. I got your stain out, but now you’re going to get a true grade on this card because now you can actually see the white from where somebody painted it.’
SCD: Knowing what you know from your experiences in the hobby over the years, and knowing what you have been told by people about your process, what do you think the grading companies will think about this interview?
Towle: It is what it is. I’m not putting anything into a card, and they can’t see anything. There are other people out there who do bits and pieces of what I do. Overall, I probably have the market as far as overall. But there are people that are as good as I am in sections of the card repairing field. But the grading companies know it’s out there and they know me. I can’t fear what somebody else may think or do. All I know is, for 15 years I’ve been satisfying hundreds of people around the country.
SCD: How much does it cost?
Towle: Generally, $25 or $30 on a card. Now there’s going to be rare exception where it will be higher. For instance, ink takes up to three or four day to remove. It’s a very slow, methodical process. But you can figure an average of maybe $25 or $30 is about the worst one would have to pay. That’s not a lot of money to have a card maybe go up a grade or grade and a half. If somebody sends me bulk, I will give them a deal.
SCD: What’s the average turnaround time?
Towle: Less than two weeks.
SCD: Have you ever had anybody who was able to detect that you did a removal on a card?
Towle: No, not a one.
SCD: How many cards have you treated in your life?
Towle: Without exaggerating, probably 15,000-18,000 cards.
SCD: And not one person could detect anything being done to one of them?
Towle: No, because there’s nothing there. There’s nothing that they can see.
SCD: What are some of the more valuable cards that you’ve worked on?
Towle: Lots of tobacco cards. I had a Babe Ruth rookie I worked on, a lot of Old Judges. I’ve probably done about 500 Old Judges that we got those looking really nice and they all graded. I’ve done so many Mickey Mantle rookies it’s ridiculous.
SCD: What’s the hardest substance to remove from a card?
Towle: Possibly the ballpoint ink, but that’s getting closer. The ink, you’ve got to be careful, because you don’t want it to bleed.
Probably the hardest are the cards that are glued into something. About nine months ago, a woman sent me an actual chest, like a pirates chest. She sent me the top. I got this monster thing from UPS. And there were 28 tobacco cards glued into the top of the chest, and eight of them were Ty Cobbs. We actually had to get a jigsaw and cut out the cards. And then I had to work from a piece of wood in my solvent. And we got them all out. Now true, there was some staining on the back. I couldn’t help it. It was wood. But the cards were absolutely gorgeous. I sent them back, and she was ecstatic. Whatever happened to them (after that), I have no clue.
SCD: Do you have any clients that are auction houses.
Towle: No.
The SCD crew couldn’t detect his procedures on cards they sent him. He claims the grading companies can’t detect the procedures, either.
Yet Gone With the Stain owner Dick Towle still catches flack from collectors. Whether he’s taking off an ugly water stain, fountain pen ink or glue residue from a card, there are people out there who don’t believe his stain removal process is ethical. Some think it’s good for the hobby, while others consider it borderline taboo.
I recently did an interview with Towle about his controversial procedure for my Gavel Chat blog (gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com), and thought readers of the publication would be as intrigued with this topic as our online readers were.
Sports Collectors Digest: Tell us about your company and how you got started.
Dick Towle: About 15 years ago, I had developed a process and took about two years of research and showed it to some prominent dealers who saw one of my processes for removing Scotch tape from a card that he (originally) said couldn’t be done. That bothered me, so I went back, knocked on his hotel room door, showed it to him and his partner and he said, “I can’t believe it.”
We developed the processes for removing Scotch tape and over the years we’ve increased that with cards that are glued into albums to remove the glue. We also do cards that have indents that shouldn’t be on there, or cards that have staining on the back of them. We’ve been doing it for 15 years, and work with many prominent dealers around the country, including some of the great people on the Network 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum, who I have as customers.
It’s quite a process. It’s evolved. My wife now has taken over a lot of my work, and my son. It’s a family business. I guess the bottom line is taking a card without adding anything to it, which to me is very, very illegal. But removing something that should not be on a card, and increasing the value. We’re non-sports and sports cards, and we’ve done quite a few different things for customers.
SCD: Do you use a chemical process?
Towle: I’ve got various chemicals. I’ve got about 13 that I’ve developed. We’ve just finished an ink process for a very prominent dealer down in Florida where we’ve developed the process to take fountain pen ink off of cards. They were actually graded by two very reputable grading companies. They both passed grading. We were actually able to extract the ink. We’re working on ballpoint pen right now. But the fountain pen ink came out and the cards were graded, which obviously adds huge dollars to a card.
SCD: Can you smell the chemicals on the card?
Towle: No. In fact, when I first started out, one of the prominent grading companies gave me cards as a test. And I did it for them, and they looked at the card and smelled the card and they said “There’s nothing here.” And I said, “Case closed.” That was really the launch pad right there.
SCD: What will happen to the cards that you’ve treated years from now? Are there been any long-term effects?
Towle: No, because again, I’m removing something that shouldn’t be on there. Now, there are people that will use lighter fluid to remove stains from cards. Well, it will work, but only on a short term because paper has moisture in it. The lighter fluid actually takes it out. That card becomes brittle like a credit card and can snap. That’s actually happened before. We did a Roberto Clemente card just to prove the case. It snapped. After about five days the card snapped in half, very brittle.
If you send me a card with a rounded corner, with an indent, you’re going to get the card back with the rounded corner, but the indent will be gone. Cards with stains, you’re going to get the stains removed.
People have asked me, “Do you tell the customer that the stain has been removed?” Well, 99 percent of my work is done for dealers and individual customers around the country. What they do with the card after that, I have no idea. But then again, if a card is already graded from a “4” to a “7,” that really tells the story.
I just completed a Mickey Mantle rookie for another prominent dealer down in Florida. It had terrible stains on the back and we got the stains off. He said the card would probably get a “lock 8.” But it wouldn’t get it with the stains on it. He’s as happy as a bullfrog.
SCD: Do you have any stories about very valuable cards that you’ve seen in graded-card holders that would have been really low graded if you wouldn’t have done your process on them?
Towle: Oh, yes. There was a complete Cracker Jack set. These cards were all glued in a book. They commissioned my company to remove the cards, remove the cards without damaging and remove the glue. We did them all. We got it all out. They sold for well in excess of $50,000. They actually ended up selling, all of those cards in PSA sleeves, for around $180,000.
That’s because there was nothing on the cards. The cards were fine.
I once got a Clemente rookie, and the customer wanted the stain out. I put it in the solvent, and noticed the card was very hard. That bothered me. I got it out of the solvent and had two pieces of the card in my hand. What it was, someone did a very masterful job. The card was perfectly torn in half, they glued it and then they put the non-florescent paint on the card. And they brought it together. We proved that somebody had tried to defraud this customer.
When I do a lot of cards, I’ll see sometimes that a card has been painted because the solvent will actually take the paint off the cards. So somebody buys a beautiful card and asks me to take out an indent. I’ll put it in the solvent and I’ll look and see the tip of the card. And all of a sudden I’ll see the color come off. I say ‘Well I got good news and bad news. I got your stain out, but now you’re going to get a true grade on this card because now you can actually see the white from where somebody painted it.’
SCD: Knowing what you know from your experiences in the hobby over the years, and knowing what you have been told by people about your process, what do you think the grading companies will think about this interview?
Towle: It is what it is. I’m not putting anything into a card, and they can’t see anything. There are other people out there who do bits and pieces of what I do. Overall, I probably have the market as far as overall. But there are people that are as good as I am in sections of the card repairing field. But the grading companies know it’s out there and they know me. I can’t fear what somebody else may think or do. All I know is, for 15 years I’ve been satisfying hundreds of people around the country.
SCD: How much does it cost?
Towle: Generally, $25 or $30 on a card. Now there’s going to be rare exception where it will be higher. For instance, ink takes up to three or four day to remove. It’s a very slow, methodical process. But you can figure an average of maybe $25 or $30 is about the worst one would have to pay. That’s not a lot of money to have a card maybe go up a grade or grade and a half. If somebody sends me bulk, I will give them a deal.
SCD: What’s the average turnaround time?
Towle: Less than two weeks.
SCD: Have you ever had anybody who was able to detect that you did a removal on a card?
Towle: No, not a one.
SCD: How many cards have you treated in your life?
Towle: Without exaggerating, probably 15,000-18,000 cards.
SCD: And not one person could detect anything being done to one of them?
Towle: No, because there’s nothing there. There’s nothing that they can see.
SCD: What are some of the more valuable cards that you’ve worked on?
Towle: Lots of tobacco cards. I had a Babe Ruth rookie I worked on, a lot of Old Judges. I’ve probably done about 500 Old Judges that we got those looking really nice and they all graded. I’ve done so many Mickey Mantle rookies it’s ridiculous.
SCD: What’s the hardest substance to remove from a card?
Towle: Possibly the ballpoint ink, but that’s getting closer. The ink, you’ve got to be careful, because you don’t want it to bleed.
Probably the hardest are the cards that are glued into something. About nine months ago, a woman sent me an actual chest, like a pirates chest. She sent me the top. I got this monster thing from UPS. And there were 28 tobacco cards glued into the top of the chest, and eight of them were Ty Cobbs. We actually had to get a jigsaw and cut out the cards. And then I had to work from a piece of wood in my solvent. And we got them all out. Now true, there was some staining on the back. I couldn’t help it. It was wood. But the cards were absolutely gorgeous. I sent them back, and she was ecstatic. Whatever happened to them (after that), I have no clue.
SCD: Do you have any clients that are auction houses.
Towle: No.
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
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Comments
Steve
Commissions
Check out my Facebook page
If someone glues a card to an album, I guess it would be OK to remove that glue, or writing on a card.
But he mentioned Cracker Jacks - I think it would be wrong to remove the stains the cards received from the cracker jacks in the box.
A fine line, maybe, but to remove original staining (like carmel or bubble gum staining) would be altering, IMO
I just did another search for "Dick Towle", and came up with 25 separate threads since 2004 where he is mentioned.
Steve
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
Another forum where he is mentioned is net 54.
like here many there have mixed feelings.
Steve
Flattening a corner via a screwdown - Ok or not?
Rubbing out a rubber band edge issue - Ok or not?
Rubbing out a slight wrinkle - OK or not?
Removing a wax stain, front - Ok or not?
Removing a wax stain, back - Ok or not?
Removing tape - Ok or not?
Soaking - Ok or not?
Removing ink - Ok or not?
Removing an indentation - Ok or not?
Removing other substances on a card (glue, paint, water stains, etc.) - OK or not?
I'm assuming that no one thinks that trimming is ok. Though I'd love to have someone come on here and try to defend that.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
His name is funny.
Steve
Steve - c'mon, you're better than that.
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
That's why I'm on the fence as far as soaking. I would be opposed to soaking to brighten the borders, but I'd probably be OK with soaking to remove pen marks.
I am opposed to removing indentations because they are a result of either manufacture defects or handling (like fingernails). Same thing for surface wrinkles. They occur during manufacture and removing them is no different than trimming a rough factory cut.
After reading the article, I'm not sure how he can guarantee no long term effects. The cards he's treated have not been around long enough post-treatment to guarantee that. How does he know that after 20 years, these cards won't discolor or the cardboard won't become degraded? He says he uses 13 chemicals, I'd bet some of them will do long term damage.
<< <i>I'm going thru a related issue. I have some 1988 Topps Test Cloth cards and 2 have wrinkles on them. I assume a light spraying of water and some weight will solve the issue but the moral dilema comes into play. Not for resale but as with everything, you never know. I'll probally just print some more and be more careful.
Scans of 1988 Topps commons, ink jet printer and roll of Bounty = instant 1988 Topps cloth.
I believe that any process that doesn't "add" to the card and can't be detected will be done and is OK with me - i.e. - removing wax, junk or whatever - the process is irrelevant to me also.
I'm not even opposed to restorations if the card is marked that way and the market will determine how good they think the job is and what it's worth.
They do it in the movie poster business - along with silk or cotton backing and it does alot to preserve the item.
People will never agree on this - and life's too short to really get worked up about it - I think that's all Steve was tryin to say - after all - this is one of those horses that's been to the glue factory and back if ya know what I mean?
In short - our collectibles are works of art - of a sort - and may/can be worthy of some kind of restoration - if the hobby will embrace it.
mike
Basically, I need him to towel off the trickle.
I've had better puns, but it was worth a shot.
<< <i>
I'm assuming that no one thinks that trimming is ok. Though I'd love to have someone come on here and try to defend that. >>
I'll play along. (I'm against trimming though)
Trimming Makes the Cut
By Donovan
Trimming. An art if you will. Not everyone can do it and it should be left to the professionals. Cards are restored, as is furniture, paintings, even the Constitution. Trimming is done to enhance the appearance of the card and should be allowed to do so, if the owner chooses to do so. If the card is later encapsuled at some point by a second party grading company and it slips by (as this is taboo to them) then it's their fault for not catching it.
Trimming a card makes it have more eye appeal. As most of us are drawn to things with beauty. Yes, the card is not original, but not many things are nowdays. It's time to blend with mass society. Everywhere in life we have knockoffs, restoration and enhancements. If your against trimming, I assume your against body enhancements (hair plugs,enlargements,liposuction etc) adding a after market part to a car, changing your hair color or something as simple as rubbing a wax stain off. That is still altering the card. To get technical, pushing down a flipped up corner is altering. Your changing it's 'natural' as is state. I know swapping out body parts and other situations that are life threatening is not on the same level as baseball cards. But it's still an alteration.
Many are against trimming but for removing wax. Is that just because you have pantyhose and not a cutter handy? So gettting a card from the pack should not be touched? If the gum is stuck to the card and I freeze it off, isnt that altering it's "pack fresh" state?
If trimming was an accepted practice, would you do it? I assume many will say yes, based on the number of "This should be .5 higher" threads I see people worry about. Without a doubt grades are important. For many it's a "I have a awesome high grade collection", for others in an investment or a way to make money. Trimming will be more widespread in the future as condition plays a even more important role to weed out the sheer volume of cardboard out there.
Happy Cutting !
I'd carry on but I have work to do.
*Again, this is not my opinion on the matter. Just playing devils advocate.
*edit- misspelling of cardboard. lol
There seems to be a dangerously thin line when it comes to alterations, but I don't feel that removing wax stains, water stains, pencil marks, and crusty boogers qualify as an alteration. An unethical alteration in my opinion would be trimming, recoloring, recornering, rebacking, etc. Even though there is no standard to what type of alterations are acceptable, probably the best rule of thumb to go by is whether a reputable TPG will grade the card or not.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
I may be in a minority here, but as much as I dislike marks, paper loss, poor centering, and major creasing, I find mint vintage cards almost as undesirable.
When I look at high graded vintage, most of it is so unappealing to me. It almost looks fake...like, despite its being 50+ years old, it has no history...or worse, it has a history that I wouldn't be proud of.
While cost is certainly a factor, a nicely centered mid grade vintage card is beautiful to me. For me, many PSA 8s, 9s, and 10s completely turn me off.
will i ever get 10k posts?
who is felicia?
where is my original cobra claw glove at?
man... the mysteries of life
j
RIP GURU
<< <i>What Curt said...though my collecting preferences aren't as affected by these methods of restoration as the higher grade market is I'd presume.
I may be in a minority here, but as much as I dislike marks, paper loss, poor centering, and major creasing, I find mint vintage cards almost as undesirable.
When I look at high graded vintage, most of it is so unappealing to me. It almost looks fake...like, despite its being 50+ years old, it has no history...or worse, it has a history that I wouldn't be proud of.
While cost is certainly a factor, a nicely centered mid grade vintage card is beautiful to me. For me, many PSA 8s, 9s, and 10s completely turn me off. >>
I think I can help you out with this problem of yours...... Just send me all your high grade vintage, and in return I'll send the same cards back in mid grade condition. yeah, yeah, I know, I'm making a big sacrifice here
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
Mike
<< <i>........Even though there is no standard to what type of alterations are acceptable, probably the best rule of thumb to go by is whether a reputable TPG will grade the card or not. >>
///////////////////////////////////////////////
This is from the currency-collecting perspective on the issue:
January 07, 2007 8:00 AM
I suspect that the number of technically "non-original" notes is
much higher than any of us is likely to guess.
PCGS Currency FULLY understands the issue; from their grading standards page:
"In the 1970s and early 1980s many uncirculated notes were pressed out flat as a board to remove the original paper wave and embossing that, at the time, was considered
a “defect.” Today, while the proponents of paper originality and embossing seem to be in the majority, this may not always be the case. How one approaches this problem is
the basis for a reasonable and consistent grading standard. To ignore the problem would be a disservice to those in the marketplace who currently value originality. To place
too much blame or detraction upon those notes that are truly beautiful and highly collectible, yet are not wholly original, would be a disservice. Many estimates of the numbers
of large size type notes that have been restored in some fashion or another run so high that the supply of truly original notes might be so low as to preclude their
collectability."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Most of the "restoration" was done not to increase financial value, but to make the
notes "look better." The circumstance is not totally unlike the cleaning of coins
in the 1940s and 1950s. (Undoubtedly, many such coins have "retoned" and now
reside in high-end graded plastic.)
As PCGS understands, the originality of notes was not always highly-prized, and there
may come a time when originality again drops from vogue.
My personal WAG is that at least 85% of LS notes now valued at $500.00 or more, have
been played-with at some time in their life-cycle. The percentages of notes in lower
grades that are not original skews that WAG to the higher end. Many UNC or better
notes - by appearance and TPG-grade - probably actually are "original;" most in lower
grades, probably are not "totally original."
If "original" ever becomes the only criteria that collectors are interested in meeting,
there will not be much for them to collect.
storm
30
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Originality" in commodity cards will likely remain a firm standard
for a very long time.
I really do not think "originality" has been a firm standard in matters
of "vintage" cards for a VERY long time. Collectors like to believe that
it is, but folks involved in selling cards during the late 60s and early
70s have been aware of the "doctoring" of old cards for a long time.
TPGs largely grade cards as they are presented to them. If a card
"looks original," it will be graded.
.....................................
Doll Hospitals have been around for way more than 100-years, in the USA.
In Europe/Asia, they go back much further in time.
In the 1950s, I recall many folks asking my aunt, "Is this an original doll?"
Her common answer was, "Who is to say?"
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
"Molon Labe"
<< <i>This is the greatest crime against humanity in the history of the world. >>
Oh the humanity..
A rookie Mantle with stains removed and the card is now a "lock for an 8"? A bump of thousands of dollars!
And there was a thread recently about Wal-mart incorrectly pricing a box of cards and someone got the box much cheaper. And how morally incorrect it was, buying that box of cards priced incorrectly, and sending the wrong message to his kid.
What kind of message would this send to kids?
Don't tell your kids about Towle family! LOL!
And pleeeeeeeeze do not tell the seller of that stained Mantle rookie card, he may have left "many thousands of dollars on the table"?
That's your little secret, along with the Towles!
rd
P.S. "He works with many dealers"! Who in turn sub those cards, and we buy them! Right? But he claims he doesn't know or care what happens to the cards after they are altered, oh I mean "cleansed"!
Maybe 15,000 "Towled cards" out there! Wow!
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
And using steroids to hit home runs is like using prep h to cure asteroids.
Cheating is still cheating.