Would you be comfortable selling a coin . . .

ajaan · March 18, 2009 4:00AM

that was slabbed and graded by NGC. Then cracked out and submitted to PCGS where it came back 'not genuine'? It's a World gold coin. Who is correct? NGC or PCGS?

BBQnBLUES · March 18, 2009 4:08AM

I would be willing to gamble on NGC opinion being valid considering PCGS isn't a "World Coin" grading specialist.

Show us the coin !!!!

newsman · March 18, 2009 4:28AM

I'd want a third opinion -- not necessarily a TPG, but perhaps an experienced dealer.

Hussulo · March 18, 2009 4:41AM

What is your opinion of it Don? did you weigh it etc..?

If I personally I truly believed it was genuine I would sell it as such but offer a full refund if the buyer is not satisfied. The trouble is if they send it off to PCGS they might ask for their money back if they send it off to NGC they may be happy with it. Perhaps NGC were wrong or perhaps PCGS got it wrong they both have their off days.

I agree with newsman another option could be to send it to an experienced dealer or an action house for sale or auction and let one of their resident experts examine it.

Definitely not news you want to hear when sending a coin for slabbing, especially one that came out of another respected TPG service.

coinpictures · March 18, 2009 4:52AM

Neither company is flawless.

As a seller, the only position you can realistically take is: if you crack it out of the holder you're on your own. If you want to play the crossover game, you do so at your own risk.

ajaan · March 18, 2009 4:52AM

Would it make any difference if the person you're selling the coin to is a dealer?

newbiecollector · March 18, 2009 5:39AM

My thought/comment and maybe not worth much. If you were selling it Don and you gave your opion of the grade.........bee 100% for me.

Of course I dont submit coins for slabbing so maybe that makes my comment even less of a useful one

newsman · March 18, 2009 6:03AM

<< Would it make any difference if the person you're selling the coin to is a dealer? >>

If that dealer is someone who should be able to determine authenticity, then he's on his own. I'd give him a chance to examine the coin before buying, though.

thisnamztaken · March 18, 2009 8:12AM

If I had real suspicions that it is a counterfeit, I would mention to any prospective buyer(s) just what you said in your OP, i.e., "it was slabbed and graded by NGC. Then cracked out and submitted to PCGS where it came back 'not genuine'." That is being upfront and honest and puts the ball squarely in their court.

Doogy · March 18, 2009 8:31AM

two things come to mind that drives my opinion.

One is a story told to me by Ira Goldberg before the Millennia auction. Very early on when they were assembling the collection for the collector, he sent a couple rare coins into PCGS as he wanted the protection that the slabs provide. PCGS immediatly bodybagged them, as they couldn't identify them in Krause. Understandly peeved, they sent them to NGC under the same high cost tier that they sent them to PCGS. The difference was that NGC deals with high dollar world coins on a much more frequent basis, did the proper research and got them back slabbed with the proper attribution and research performed. Turns out, one was really rare, but he wasn't any more specfic than that.

Second, at NGC you have their vice president Ken Krah as a finaizer, who has handled and graded the Millennia, Eliasberg and CGB world coins, among the rarest in the world. i'd trust his opinion on authenticity long before a company that is known to use US coin graders for their world coinage.

.....but as Dan said, neither is flawless. I just know the odds are in favor of one over the other due to their expericene in these types of coins.

coinkat · March 18, 2009 8:51AM

Ajaan:

This is a good question... do you have the ability to weigh the coin and is it a bullion type gold coin?

CIVITAS · March 19, 2009 3:47AM

Does PCGS have two bodybag categories like NGC (i.e. "NOT GENUINE" vs "QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY" or "UNABLE TO DETERMINE AUTHENTICITY").

"NOT GENUINE" is a very definitive stance, and I would hope they have good reason for it.

ajaan · March 19, 2009 4:39AM

Here the story. I actually sold this coin a few years ago. It was a Turkish gold coin. I sent it to NGC and it came back MS61 or something like that. I thought it was MS64 quality so I sent it to PCGS. It came back 'Not Genuine'. I thought this was BS so I sold it raw to a full time coin dealer at a coin show. I basically receive the gold spot price for the coin.

coinpictures · March 19, 2009 5:01AM

<< Does PCGS have two bodybag categories like NGC (i.e. "NOT GENUINE" vs "QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY" or "UNABLE TO DETERMINE AUTHENTICITY"). >>

Or the more likely accurate "WE DON'T HAVE AN EFFING CLUE"...

Since PCGS doesn't holder coins they do not perceive to be genuine, is this really an issue? Whether they state it is definitively NOT genuine or they cannot tell if it is genuine or not, it's not getting into a holder, and since PCGS never gives you detailed information about why they bodybag a coin it's a moot point... would be nice if they differentiated though...

SYRACUSIAN · March 19, 2009 5:10AM

<< Here the story. I actually sold this coin a few years ago. It was a Turkish gold coin. I sent it to NGC and it came back MS61 or something like that. I thought it was MS64 quality so I sent it to PCGS. It came back 'Not Genuine'. I thought this was BS so I sold it raw to a full time coin dealer at a coin show. I basically receive the gold spot price for the coin. >>

The truth is that there are counterfeit gold Turkish coins around. But I wouldn't have a hint of remorse for selling an ex NGC MS61 coin to a dealer. Let's screw them whenever we can Don.

Josh, you're on the exception list.

Hussulo · March 19, 2009 5:12AM

I agree it would be nice to get an accompanying note listing the reasons behind the decision "Not Genuine". As you know some coins are easily identifiable yet others only give away subtle clues. If they added the reason like underweight, cast, wrong R in legend etc. the collectors could better understand their decision and perhaps learn from the experience.

I have to say even though I don't collect Turkish gold coins I can't recollect seeing many counterfeit ones.

Hussulo · March 19, 2009 5:17AM

Oops I guess I added my reply before I was able to read Dimitri's comment "The truth is that there are counterfeit gold Turkish coins around. "

Dimitri is much more knoledgable then me in this area.

TwoKopeiki · March 19, 2009 7:04AM

I would send it back to NGC and if it comes back holdered, I'd up the price by what it cost me to send it to PCGS and NGC and sell it without any remorse.

Just my 2 kopecks.

zeebob · March 19, 2009 8:52AM

That's a great question. I think I'd call PCGS and talk to them. Maybe ask them to review the decision or explain it. I see stuff in NCG slabs that shouldn't be slabbed. So while they may have seen more world coins than PCGS (based on population reports), I certainly don't consider NGC more authoritative on any series than PCGS. I think it more likely for a fake coin to be slabbed by NGC than a genuine coin to be BB'd by PCGS.

Edited to add: Need look no further than this auction to see NGC doesn't even identify coins correctly that they slab (yes, I know... mistakes happen everywhere). 1/2P = Farthing? humph.

Doogy · March 19, 2009 9:15AM

<< That's a great question. I think I'd call PCGS and talk to them. Maybe ask them to review the decision or explain it. I see stuff in NCG slabs that shouldn't be slabbed. So while they may have seen more world coins than PCGS (based on population reports), I certainly don't consider NGC more authoritative on any series than PCGS. I think it more likely for a fake coin to be slabbed by NGC than a genuine coin to be BB'd by PCGS.

Edited to add: Need look no further than this auction to see NGC doesn't even identify coins correctly that they slab (yes, I know... mistakes happen everywhere). 1/2P = Farthing? humph. >>

you may see it that way, but the market clearly disagrees with your assessment. see my above statements.......PCGS is known for BB'ing stuff they don't have a clue about, as you have US coin guys doing the grading.

zeebob · March 20, 2009 7:09AM

<< 

<< That's a great question. I think I'd call PCGS and talk to them. Maybe ask them to review the decision or explain it. I see stuff in NCG slabs that shouldn't be slabbed. So while they may have seen more world coins than PCGS (based on population reports), I certainly don't consider NGC more authoritative on any series than PCGS. I think it more likely for a fake coin to be slabbed by NGC than a genuine coin to be BB'd by PCGS.

Edited to add: Need look no further than this auction to see NGC doesn't even identify coins correctly that they slab (yes, I know... mistakes happen everywhere). 1/2P = Farthing? humph. >>

you may see it that way, but the market clearly disagrees with your assessment. see my above statements.......PCGS is known for BB'ing stuff they don't have a clue about, as you have US coin guys doing the grading. >>

I understand your point of view. But if we all let facts interfere with the development of our own opinions conversations would become rather dull.

But "PCGS is known for BB'ing stuff they don't have a clue about..." sounds like opinion. I find it hard to think our hosts would just BB something as fake to score a grading fee because they were either too lazy or ignorant of the coin in question. That just doesn't ring true.

PCGS employs the top graders in the industry. They may not know EVERYTHING about every series, but I don't think they would bag something as fake without good reason.

Differences in grading opinions are one thing. But counterfeit detection is another can of worms all together.

Neither company has a monopoly on knowledge or a perfect record grading.

If PCGS BB'd a coin as fake and it was previously in NGC's plastic, I would be wondering who made the mistake. I'd call PCGS and talk to them, possibly ask for a second review.

newsman · March 20, 2009 9:05AM

<< Need look no further than this auction to see NGC doesn't even identify coins correctly that they slab (yes, I know... mistakes happen everywhere). 1/2P = Farthing? humph. >>

I've got one of those 1/2 d coins, too, in a PCGS holder, except it's a 1929 and it says "farthing" on the coin.

koincollect · March 20, 2009 9:32AM

All the TPG's do make mistakes... NGC lesser than the others. NGC did slab quite a few fake world coins just 3-4 years back. Now they seem to have very good staff and do good research.

I had sent some coins which I knew were genuine to ANACS and they bb'ed them... off they went to NGC where they got slabbed. I have not seen any fakes in PCGS yet.

Selling a fake coin in a slab knowingly is unethical IMO. You can say that the seller has got the NGC guarantee but think the seller should take advantage of the guarantee and not pass it along to the buyer.

In ajaan's case I do not know if he would have been able sell the coin back to NGC since he was the submitter. Anyone knows how this guarantee works????

thisnamztaken · March 20, 2009 10:27AM

<< Selling a fake coin in a slab knowingly is ethical IMO. >>

Hopefully you made a typo there and meant to write unethical?

koincollect · March 20, 2009 1:55PM

<< 

<< Selling a fake coin in a slab knowingly is ethical IMO. >>

Hopefully you made a typo there and meant to write unethical? >>

Thanks for pointing this out! I will edit my original post. :-)

zeebob · March 21, 2009 5:42AM

This CIVITAS thread got me thinking... Don't diagnostics change with time? By that I mean as a new strain of counterfeits is identified, don't the "tells" get added to the collective numismatic knowledge base of fake coin diagnostics?

If I had a coin that was slabbed a while back by company A and recently designated as fake by company B, one of my questions would be "does company B in 2009 know more than company A did some number of years ago?" Just something else to consider I suppose.

Cheers all,

Zeebob

Would you be comfortable selling a coin . . .

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