New Purchase - PCGS MS64BN 1916s US-PI Ctvo - Coin In Hand

IloiloKano · March 13, 2009 10:36AM

The 1916-S Centavo is harder to find in such condition than mintage (4,330,000) suggests, possibly due to WW1 coin melts, as well as later melts and confiscation by Japanese forces in WW2, and certainly made more difficult to obtain by extensive usage and early propensity of Filipino dealers to clean their coins.

Redbook prices this coin in MS63 at $200, which is apparently what my opponent's maximum bid was, but Lyman Allen (which quotes prices for the higher grades) lists it as $245 in MS63 and $750 in MS65. Though I would have loved not to have competed with another determined bidder, I still feel I received a good deal. PCGS population report for this coin shows 8 in this grade (BN), with two higher BN's and 14 lower BN's. There is only one RED for this date in the population report, and it is also an MS64. There are a total of 41 in all grades, and only 10 are gems. The Combined (PCGS, NGC & ANACS) Population Report in brown has 17 in this grade with 7 higher and 29 lower. Interestingly, there are only two RED's registered in all three TPG's.

Just curious, but was anyone here the underbidder?

Seller's pics, but I will update with quality images upon receipt in hand.

Edited to add the following picture. I'll have better posted after work.

ASUtodd · March 13, 2009 11:41AM

I bought a collection of old German notes and a few coins and in the lot were some Japanese Notes during their occupation of the Philippines (these were 1 centavos notes printed by the Japanese). I immediately thought of you and tried to get them also but he would not sell. They weren't worth but about a dollar or so a piece but for some reason he thought he had paper gold..... I even showed him in the World Paper Money Price guide but he wouldn't sell... Oh well they were cool to look at!

IloiloKano · March 13, 2009 11:52AM

edited for atrocious spelling...

The Filipinos at the time derisively referred to them as Mickey Mouse money. This was the money they "exchanged" when they confiscated the US-PI coinage, and the coinage, mostly the silver, was sent back to Japan to be melted in order to help fund their war effort.

bidask · March 13, 2009 12:16PM

Nice pickup.

jetblack740il · March 14, 2009 11:55AM

Very good deal with that grade and the price you pay for it. Congratulations and continue building up your set. The only stoppers is all the variety specially the 1916S large S which is only 1 certified in RB.

IloiloKano · March 14, 2009 1:09PM

jetblack740il,
Knowing the quality of your collection, that you say I got a very good deal means a lot to me.

Yes, the varieties are killers, so much so that Allen describes the 14S Large S and 16S Large as "questionable". I've seen where you have a 14S Large S certified by PCGS, but the mintmark doesn't appear to be near as large as the 18S Large S, so that may be the reason he questions that variety. The Large S on the 18S is huge and unmistakable. I doubt that I will try for the varieties though, since I find the non-varieties challenging enough.

Among the latter, the 1915S was a bear, but I finally obtained one last July graded by NGC as AU58BN, and I'll be happy to get it to cross as AU55. That one cost me, but I used a 10% ebay discount, (which was offered at the perfect time), to get my out-of-pocket for it down to $450. So with the 1915S behind me in a Choice AU, the 1920S obtained in PCGS AU55, and now this one just short of Gem, the most difficult left for me are the 1909S and 1920(M). I have both of those ready to submit though. The 1909S is about AU55, but the 1920(M) has a shot at Gem in my opinion, unless PCGS sees wear that I haven't detected, in which case the best it could get is AU58.

When I started this set, I decided to focus on the most difficult and expensive first, and I have all but a handful of easier dates (1930M is the hardest of the remaining) ready to be submitted, but at better than $20 a pop for certification, and the seemingly unavoidable occasional BB, I'll wait until this summer to send in another batch.

spoon · March 14, 2009 1:22PM

Looks like another great addition and the scarcity makes it all the better

Here's perhaps a dumb question as I've never done more than casually collect USPI coinage.. To what extent do you think there are still great finds raw and in the wild? I mean, with too many Darkside areas you'll see someone tout "finest graded" when it's well known that there are hundreds of beauties still raw overseas. It seems USPI stuff has been gaining traction over the past few years and a lot has been heading to the TPGs, but how much do you think is still out there? I don't mean to critique the low pops reported in the series by this, I'm genuinely curious. From what I've seen I'm beginning to think the pops are fairly accurate in a lot of cases and that the wild herds may be thinning

jetblack740il · March 14, 2009 1:43PM

With that 16S Large S being the only 1 certified and 14S Large S 2 certified by PCGS maybe in question to be part of the registry set. I was wondering what is the criteria PCGS used to qualified variety as part of the registry set? I have seen more examples of 1908S/S/S and 1908S/S centavo variety than the 14S and 16S large S and also total pop reported between the 3 TPG's for these are more, however these 2 varieties (1908S/S/S & 1908 S/S) were not part of the registry set.

IloiloKano · March 14, 2009 2:54PM

This is just my opinion, but I suspect that at present, there are (in the higher grades) at least two uncertified for everyone certified, and there are many more in lower grades that cost more to certify than they are presently worth. However, for the really difficult dates in the highest condition, I think there are likely few that are outstanding. What I mean by that is for my 1915S in AU58, there are probably a significant number uncertified, but for the same date in MS63 there are probably very few, since how many people are going to own a $1,500 coin for very long before they seek to have it certified? On the other hand, there were 58 million 1944S centavos minted, and the Philippines became an independent nation in 1946, so there are probably still millions left in RED Uncirculated, and that coin in MS65RED is at best a $30 coin, perhaps a bit more it someone had it certified anyway, but when it costs nearly that much to certify, how many are likely to get certified? Currently PCGS has certified 51 MS65 REDs, 63 MS66 REDs and 6 MS67 REDs. I'd be willing to bet there are a few MS67 REDs uncertified and perhaps a handful MS68 or even higher REDs uncertified. On the other hand, there is only one 1915S RED certified by PCGS, and it is MS64 (no RED Gems). There are only 2 Gem RB's and 4 Gem BNs. Lyman Allen values a Gem 1915S at $4,500, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear of one selling for twice that amount, so if there are more than a handful still uncertified, I would be surprised.

The true rarity of MS63 and higher centavos will begin to be reflected in the population reports when grades of VF and XF fetch money that justifies having these lower grade coins certified.

Here are a few examples where the value in lower grades is significant, along with their Combined Population Reports.

1918-S Five Centavos MULE ($1,250 in EF : $5,500-$12,000 in MS63)
EF-5, AU-18, MS60-2, MS61-0, MS62-4, MS63-2, M64-1, MS65-1 (ONE GEM)

For the 1918-S and 1921(M) Five Centavos there are ZERO Gems in the Combined Population report

1903-S Ten Centavos ($30-$35 in EF : $600-$650 in MS63)
EF-7, AU-16, MS60-0, MS61-1, MS62-4, MS63-2, MS64-4, MS65-0, MS66-1 (ONE GEM)

For the 1911-S Ten Centavos there are ZERO Gems in the Combined Population report

1905-S Twenty Centavos ($35-$40 in EF : $300-$1,200 in MS63)
EF-8, AU-20, MS60-1, MS61-1, MS62-2, MS63-2, MS64-3, MS65-ZERO (NO GEMs)

For the above 1905-S, 1908-S, 1911-S, and 1914-S Twenty Centavos there are ZERO Gems in the Combined Population report.

1905-S Fifty Centavos ($40-$45 in EF : $900-$3,000 in MS63)
EF-4, AU-28, MS60-2, MS61-1, MS62-8, MS63-5, MS64-4, MS65-1 (ONE GEM)
1920(M) Fifty Centavos ($10 in EF : $80-$125 in MS63 -- a very underrated coin)
EF-2, AU-39, MS60-3, MS61-4, MS62-11, MS63-22, MS64-17, MS65-ZERO (NO GEMs)

1903(P) One Peso ($25-$30 in EF : $275-$750 in MS63)
EF-5, AU-28, MS60-2, MS61-9, MS62-17, MS63-14, MS64-9, MS65-1 (ONE GEM)
1905-S (Straight Serif) One Peso ($60-$80 in EF : $1,000-$4,500 in MS63)
EF-11, AU-60, MS60-0, MS61-2, MS62-1, MS63-1, MS64-ZERO, MS65-ZERO (ONE Choice and ZERO GEMs)
1906-S One Peso ($2,600-$3,250 in EF : $25,000-$32,500 in MS63)
EF-15, AU-19, MS60-1, MS61-5, MS62-1, MS63-ZERO, MS64-ZERO, MS65-ZERO (ZERO Choice and ZERO GEMs)
1912-S One Peso ($70-$90 in EF : $5,000-$12,000 in MS63)
EF-12, AU-23, MS60-1, MS61-2, MS62-3, MS63-2, MS64-2, MS65-2, MS66-1 (3 GEMs)

You'll note the wide range of the values in higher grades. The lower value is invariably that of the Red Book Guide, which hasn't corrected incorrect mintage figures on a few coins for several years running, and if you think you can get one for the price they quote, then Good Luck. The higher quote is that of Lyman Allen, who in conjunction with several dealers specializing in US-Philippine coinage scours auctions and sales year round to get actual prices and trends for these coins in the higher grades. I trust the latter's numbers are more accurate, and the recent sale of a PCGS GEM 1912-S Peso by Heritage for over $50,000 only serves to validate Allen's quotes. A forum member and occasional poster, who probably has the best and most extensive US-PI collection in the word, was the underbidder in that auction! He is the one posting as Justhavingfun. Do a search on posts by that name, and you'll see some very knowledgeable post regarding this series.

Not far behind him is jetblack74Oil.

IloiloKano · March 14, 2009 3:17PM

<< <i>these 2 varieties (1908S/S/S & 1908 S/S) were not part of the registry set >>

Unfortunately, the 1908 S/S is the only variety I have, and it is XF45 at best. I didn't even purchase it for the variety. I only discovered it when Justhavingfun mentioned it as a variety in one of his posts, so I checked, and I lucked out with one.

coinkat · March 14, 2009 10:25PM

How tough is the 1912-s 1 Centavo in MS64 Brown?

IloiloKano · March 15, 2009 1:14AM

It's quite tough in brown, but less so in Red-Brown.

13, with 1 higher Gem BN in the Combined Population Report, but there are 9 RB's in 64 with 11 Gem RB's, and 5 Reds in 64 with one Gem Red. Nearly all pre-commonwealth Centavos are tough, but some are a little less tough. MS63 values range around $125-$140, and Allen quotes $300 for MS65. I have one ready to submit to PCGS that should make MS62 or MS63 RB, and since I am building an AU/UNC set, that is good enough for me at this time.

FilamCoins · March 15, 2009 12:17PM

Most of my centavos were purchased raw as well. I miss the hunt! This one took a while to find:

jetblack740il · March 15, 2009 4:35PM

Hello there Mr. FilAm, welcome back!

I have a couple of NGC Gem Brown (1920-S & 1921 centavo both NGC 65 BN) recently pick up on the Bay.

krueger · March 15, 2009 4:48PM

<"With that 16S Large S being the only 1 certified and 14S Large S 2 certified by PCGS maybe in question to be part of the registry set. I was wondering what is the criteria PCGS used to qualified variety as part of the registry set? I have seen more examples of 1908S/S/S and 1908S/S centavo variety than the 14S and 16S large S and also total pop reported between the 3 TPG's for these are more, however these 2 varieties (1908S/S/S & 1908 S/S) were not part of the registry set.">

-------------------------
jetblack740il

==================================
I've collected the USPI series for 33 years and I have never seen a 1914-S large "s" or 1916- large"s".
I have never seen a photo published or not (private party photo) of one either. There is a smushed "s" version of the 14-s that one dealer tried to promote as a large"S", because it looked a touch larger than one that was not and it maybe more common. It then appeared in Krause. Then someone else got PCGS to recognize it and the 16-s ( I have no idea what this one could look like) . I have seen many of these smushed 14-S's. If there are any that look like the 1918-large "S" I would like to see one or definitive photos that the USPI community of collectors agrees are truely large ones. At present those that claim one have not shared it with the USPI collectors to pass judgement . Many of us believe it to be dubious, though some have been slabbed. I have heard that PCGS is uncertain and is not sure as to their legitimacy, and I know they have consulted with the specialty communities . Thats what I know about them.

Krueger

IloiloKano · March 16, 2009 7:23AM

I received the Centavo today.

Lightning Fast Shipping!
Better quality pics are now in the first post, and later I will update those, but I have to get back to work now.

IloiloKano · March 16, 2009 10:30AM

<< <i>Most of my centavos were purchased raw as well. I miss the hunt! >>

FilamCoins, I can help you on that. Just send them all to me, and then you can start over!

I know what you mean though. However, there are times when several opportunities arise practically simultaneously, and I have to manage my bidding to try to win as many as I can, while placing the most aggressive bids on the ones I want most. That happened to me this week.

I was the underbidder on jetblack74Oil's 1917S Centavo and Den Komaromi's Gem 1941M 20 Centavos and a RED 1930M Centavo and what appeared to be a GEM 1931M Five Centavos. I placed a very aggressive bid (for Choice) on that last one, but I still got beat out, since I couldn't take a chance on it not making the cut as a Gem.

I won one other nice coin, which was this ANACS 1917S 50 Centavos. I believe his starting bid was set too high to draw interest. There were several on which I didn't bid, but would have, if I didn't have a $200 plus bid setup for this Centavo. I really wanted the Red 1930M Centavo and that 1931M Five Centavos though, but maybe another opportunity will arise later when I have more cash available for bidding.

So yes, I can see how you would miss the hunt, but this week they came too fast for me.

Still, I am very glad to have won this coin, since it was the one I wanted the most. I think it is the obverse that kept it from MS65, (marks above and to the left of the eye, one right shoulder and left bicep, plus the light mark in the field above the volcano and the irregular toning). The reverse is very clean. Here are the better images, (photographed through a lightly scratched slab).

zeebob · March 16, 2009 10:54AM

Great photos guys!

jepoy · March 17, 2009 3:23PM

hi,

nice coins, what camera did you use?

jepoy

IloiloKano · March 18, 2009 10:57AM

Canon PowerShot Pro1, but it was the lighting that made the difference. I simply read and applied some excellent coin photography tips and techniques, which Mark Goodman has graciously posted online.

New Purchase - PCGS MS64BN 1916s US-PI Ctvo - Coin In Hand

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