Has anyone been to a James Spence Authentication seminar? (I went today, results inside)

thenavarro · January 29, 2009 9:59AM

James Spence is coming to Beckett in Dallas this Saturday and I think I'm going to go up to have a few items authenticated as I only live about 30 miles away from there. He's also doing some authentication talks during the day as well as authenticating onsite. Has anyone ever been to one of these. Did you find it worthwhile? Did you learn anything useful? Is James a cool guy to talk to? I'm only going to be able to attend for at the most 3 hours, as I have my daughter's team to coach during the morning. The "seminars" are free (with the exception of authentication fees) from my conversations on the phone with them today so the only real investment is time.

Please don't start with the Sal Bando stuff or nonsense. We all know that no one is perfect although many think they are.

Mphilking · January 29, 2009 10:02AM

Not me, but I couldn't think of a better person to attend that you! Hope you have a BLAST!

daddymc · January 29, 2009 10:05AM

I think it's really cool that they are offering this as a free seminar. I would definitely attend if I was local.

lsutigers1973 · January 29, 2009 10:08AM

One of these days I forsee a thread on here titled "Has anyone been to a Mike Navarro Authentication seminar?".

airjoedan · January 29, 2009 10:11AM

I have never been to a seminar (which sounds awesome) but I have met him on-site. He is a very smart guy in his trade but he didn't seem overly friendly. I guess in a seminar he would be required to speak more... my complaint would be that he was making many thousands of dollars per hour from guests and didn't even really smile at you or acknowledge you unless you said something to him.

When I asked him a question about why one autograph failed (an Ali signed jump rope), he said he has many exemplars of this signature and it is typical of a real good forger - said he knows exactly who the guy is and that he has spent time in jail. He WAS friendly then - but I just felt like he should at least say "hello, thanks for coming" or something simple to people paying him $500 for less than 5 minutes. Still...I would recommend it as it is an experience and the stuff people bring is nothing short of cool and amazing.

edited to add: I have only met him once and I realize everyone has bad days - so maybe he had a reason so I can't really judge

Dboneesq · January 29, 2009 10:12AM

<< One of these days I forsee a thread on here titled "Has anyone been to a Mike Navarro Authentication seminar?". >>

And we can all say "I KNEW HIM WHEN"!

thenavarro · January 29, 2009 10:30AM

<< I have never been to a seminar (which sounds awesome) but I have met him on-site. He is a very smart guy in his trade but I wouldn't call him very friendly at all - this generally seems to be the consensus with other people I trade with that have met him as well. I guess in a seminar he would be required to speak more... my complaint would be that he was making many thousands of dollars per hour from guests and didn't even really smile at you or acknowledge you unless you said something to him.

When I asked him a question about why one autograph failed (an Ali signed jump rope), he said he has many exemplars of this signature and it is typical of a real good forger - said he knows exactly who the guy is and that he has spent time in jail. He WAS friendly then - but I just felt like he should at least say "hello, thanks for coming" or something simple to people paying him $500 for less than 5 minutes. Still...I would recommend it as it is an experience and the stuff people bring is nothing short of cool and amazing.

edited to add: I have only met him once and I realize everyone has bad days - so maybe he had a reason so I can't really judge (even though I have heard similar tales from others) >>

Hi Joe,

Do they make their decisions on site on all the pieces, or do they gather some of them for further study, or do they just take photos of the items back if they have further questions? They told me today on the phone that autographed cards could be turned around and slabbed the same day, but I neglected to ask them about memorabilia such as posters, boxing gloves, etc. I think I'm taking a Michael Jordan poster, a Muhammad Ali glove that I had signed in person at a TriStar show in Dallas 93 or 94, which is signed Muhammad Ali AKA Cassius Clay (not the one you saw, but the one I had hanging in my office at work, I still don't agree with their assesment of that jump rope and I want to see if they quickly dismiss the glove that was signed right in front of me or if they pass it, that will tell me if I should trust their judgement on Ali stuff) I might also take them my Munson custom cut signed rookie card as they'll slab it for $20.00 and I'm still awaiting word from PSA on what it would cost from them. I"ll probably also take my Saddam Hussein signed custom cut card and see if they'll slab it for $20.00 for me. The last Hussein they slabbed for me, they charged me a premium price because they said it was too valuable, but as Hussein signatures have continued to enter the market, I don't really think they can justify the too valuable anymore.

I'm not going to take them any of my signed rookies as I'm saving them for my next submission to PSA, as I want them to all be in uniform red flipped PSA slabs (the Munson won't qualify for a "red flip" from PSA because of the custom cut aspect of it (IE, alteration to card))

Mike

thenavarro · January 29, 2009 10:33AM

<< One of these days I forsee a thread on here titled "Has anyone been to a Mike Navarro Authentication seminar?". >>

That's a good one. I do typically know my stuff on Presidential, but I don't have near the study time or research material on sports to be effective with sports.

Mike

pujolsintheminors5 · January 29, 2009 10:38AM

hmmm

thenavarro · January 29, 2009 10:41AM

<< hmmm >>

hmmm

Gonblott · January 29, 2009 10:42AM

Met the guy once and he seemed friendly to me.

mickeymantle24 · January 29, 2009 10:43AM

Never met him before, but have only heard good things about him. I bet you will have a great time if you go!

StanTheManMusial · January 29, 2009 10:56AM

Jimmy is a good guy, but a lot of times he is about business at shows. I can totally understand that. I have done business with him over the years, and never had any complaints.

Spence and PSA/DNA are both top notch organizations, that can, and will, make mistakes once in a while. No one is perfect, but overall, they both provide a great service for our hobby.

airjoedan · January 29, 2009 11:04AM

He made most of his opinions in less than 30 seconds, spending the most time on a Yao Ming basketball. He sent photos of the Ming to another person on his phone and based on that guy's decision failed that as well. I had everything pass except for the Ming ball (which came in a lot as an unknown sig) and the Ali jump rope. He WAS friendly when I spoke to him about the Ali autograph and when I mentioned that it was nice to meet him and I appreciate what he does for the hobby. While I was waiting for the decision on the Ming ball to come back to him, I watched him not greet the other people in line the same way. I guess, I'm not accusing him of being unfriendly because everyone has their days sometimes....but I just feel it wouldn't have been to hard to say something friendly and nice when someone is spending mass amounts of cash for a few minutes.

Top notch knowledge and if you initiate conversation I can guarantee at least that you will see his experience and he is very cordial in his response. I mentioned the Beckett slabbing service and that I like using it for cut autographs since PSA/DNA charges normal fees for cuts - the guy next to him that was affixing the stickers to the items stopped and starting bragging about "you know WHO started PSA/DNA don't you?" - it was a neat experience and I totally recommend it. The seminar - just sounds too cool, let us know what you hear. Neat stuff.

- Joe

airjoedan · January 29, 2009 11:07AM

<< Jimmy is a good guy, but a lot of times he is about business at shows. I can totally understand that. I have done business with him over the years, and never had any complaints.

Spence and PSA/DNA are both top notch organizations, that can, and will, make mistakes once in a while. No one is perfect, but overall, they both provide a great service for our hobby. >>

I totally agree - and further understand that he might have been in full-business mode. Statement #2 is EXACTLY how I feel about both companies and pretty much my response when anyone says something negative.

jdalymgd · January 29, 2009 11:31AM

I went to one he did at the All Star Game fan fest. He basically covered a few different big names ( in this case I think it was Mantle, Ruth, Williams, and Dimaggio ). He is very thorough and very busy at most events which is why he might not have time to talk much. I have been to some of JSA's in store appearances and they will spend some more time talking about why an autograph passed or failed.

I did ask one time about how they can spot bad autographs so quick and as I was told for most mainstream items they see so many eventually you can tell as soon as you look at them.

Paul

Boopotts · January 29, 2009 12:55PM

I did. The seminar wasn't too bad, except that before it started we all had to buy one of these:

MinorLeagueSource · January 29, 2009 1:04PM

mike,

this is joe. we spoke on the phone before about your sadaam item you had at jsa. if you go to the seminar ask for matt he's authenticator for jsa & a good friend of mine. tell him joe from bloomfield.

alsogreat collection you got going. i love the jordan ud baseball card. i have a huge collection of signed rc's myself & one day i will post scans.

best regards!

thenavarro · January 29, 2009 1:26PM

<< mike,

this is joe. we spoke on the phone before about your sadaam item you had at jsa. if you go to the seminar ask for matt he's authenticator for jsa & a good friend of mine. tell him joe from bloomfield.

alsogreat collection you got going. i love the jordan ud baseball card. i have a huge collection of signed rc's myself & one day i will post scans.

best regards! >>

Hey Joe,

Good to hear from you. I remember speaking with you late last year and early this year. Do you still work there? I'm pretty sure I'm going Saturday, I just can't get there until about 11:30 Central Time as I'm coaching my daughter's peewee basketball game first. I'm hoping they don't screw me over on my Ali glove that I got in person, I think it's $75.00 to authenticate and to me it looks just like the rope/glove that Jimmy dismissed before, but I know this one is real, I'm the one that got it signed. I plan on taking my picture of Ali and I that I got that same day from the Tri-Star photo op to prove that I was there. Maybe it will help that the glove has got the little stamped number on it from the authenticators that Tri-Star was using at the signing. Hopefully James has been around long enough, that he'll know what that stamp means. I plan on taking the rope/glove that failed up as well, as I'd like Jimmy to show me what the difference is between those and the one I had signed in person.

Thanks for the props on the collection. I look forward to seeing yours.

Mike

divecchia · January 29, 2009 1:50PM

<< Met the guy once and he seemed friendly to me. >>

I've talked with him a couple of times and he was both friendly and professional.

Have a great time at the seminar...Donato

Ahmanfan · January 29, 2009 3:37PM

Is anyone else of the opinion that sending autographs to an authentication service doesn't make a ton of sense?
I mean I get autographs in person and they will look totally different than pack certified autographs of that person. These are not paid sit down signings, rather in person autograph hounding. I would guarantee most of these would not pass authentication, but a forger sitting down could hammer out better looking 'stock' signatures of said athlete than the athlete could! I mean does anyone else feel this way?
John

Boopotts · January 29, 2009 3:42PM

<< Is anyone else of the opinion that sending autographs to an authentication service doesn't make a ton of sense?
I mean I get autographs in person and they will look totally different than pack certified autographs of that person. These are not paid sit down signings, rather in person autograph hounding. I would guarantee most of these would not pass authentication, but a forger sitting down could hammer out better looking 'stock' signatures of said athlete than the athlete could! I mean does anyone else feel this way?
John >>

Just look at the whole Sal Bando debacle. I think authentication services are fine if someone's trying to hawk a Lou Gehrig ball or something, but for autos with a value <$150 I don't really see the point. If we looked behind the green curtain I don't think we'd see anything more than a guy trying to make an educated (but frequently incorrect) guess on the authenticity. I mean really-- how you can you be at all sure that the guy doing the evaluating has ever even seen an auto of the player in question?

I guess it depends on the level of confidence you demand for your money. If I were to spend $20+ to get a $50 auto authenticated I'd want more than a 60/40 'guarantee' that the auto is legit. Otherwise I'd just as soon compare it to some other examples I can find and make my best guess.

killingdream · January 29, 2009 5:07PM

<< Is anyone else of the opinion that sending autographs to an authentication service doesn't make a ton of sense?
I mean I get autographs in person and they will look totally different than pack certified autographs of that person. These are not paid sit down signings, rather in person autograph hounding. I would guarantee most of these would not pass authentication, but a forger sitting down could hammer out better looking 'stock' signatures of said athlete than the athlete could! I mean does anyone else feel this way?
John >>

I agree totally with you. I would never blow cash on autograph authentication. It is truly a gamble. I have hundreds and hundreds of autographs that I obtained informally in person throughout the seventies and into the mid 80's. Quite a bit of these I got outside the locker room , on the players way to the team bus or on the bus itself. Due to the hurried situation the autographs were not always the "cleanest" of signatures. I guarantee that these experts out there wouldn't pass quite a few of these as they really do look different from autographs that I obtained from the same player in a more relaxed situation.

For me the only autographs that I truly trust as being authentic are those that I obtained in person. No authentication services opinion will ever be good enough for me to truly believe that Ruth . Gehrig . DiMaggio , etc signature is truly authentic. Buying vintage autos based on authentication is still quite a gamble.

brianwintersfan · January 29, 2009 11:33PM

<< 

<< Is anyone else of the opinion that sending autographs to an authentication service doesn't make a ton of sense?
I mean I get autographs in person and they will look totally different than pack certified autographs of that person. These are not paid sit down signings, rather in person autograph hounding. I would guarantee most of these would not pass authentication, but a forger sitting down could hammer out better looking 'stock' signatures of said athlete than the athlete could! I mean does anyone else feel this way?
John >>

I agree totally with you. I would never blow cash on autograph authentication. It is truly a gamble. I have hundreds and hundreds of autographs that I obtained informally in person throughout the seventies and into the mid 80's. Quite a bit of these I got outside the locker room , on the players way to the team bus or on the bus itself. Due to the hurried situation the autographs were not always the "cleanest" of signatures. I guarantee that these experts out there wouldn't pass quite a few of these as they really do look different from autographs that I obtained from the same player in a more relaxed situation.

For me the only autographs that I truly trust as being authentic are those that I obtained in person. No authentication services opinion will ever be good enough for me to truly believe that Ruth . Gehrig . DiMaggio , etc signature is truly authentic. Buying vintage autos based on authentication is still quite a gamble. >>

I totally agree with you on this. These so called "experts" have been proven to make some pretty big blunders so why waste your $$. If you know it's real that's all that matters.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 11:53PM

<< 

<< 
I agree totally with you. I would never blow cash on autograph authentication. It is truly a gamble. I have hundreds and hundreds of autographs that I obtained informally in person throughout the seventies and into the mid 80's. Quite a bit of these I got outside the locker room , on the players way to the team bus or on the bus itself. Due to the hurried situation the autographs were not always the "cleanest" of signatures. I guarantee that these experts out there wouldn't pass quite a few of these as they really do look different from autographs that I obtained from the same player in a more relaxed situation.

For me the only autographs that I truly trust as being authentic are those that I obtained in person. No authentication services opinion will ever be good enough for me to truly believe that Ruth . Gehrig . DiMaggio , etc signature is truly authentic. Buying vintage autos based on authentication is still quite a gamble. >>

Very good points...One thing that you didn't touch on which is very important is that it sounds like you are keeping your autos. If they were being sold a PSA/DNA authentication. regardless of how you feel about them, would make the difference of your obtainded in person autos if they were going to be sold for a fair market value.

Also, I saw someone bring up Operation Bullpen the other day and was just wondering as I didn't read the book yet. Did the forgeries from the people busted in Operation Bullpen end up with Spence or PSA authentications? Just wondering.

thenavarro · January 31, 2009 9:04AM

I just got back from this. It was an interesting way to spend a Saturday. It took place at Beckett in Dallas. There was 4 different seminars throughout the day. The 1st one I missed completely was on BGS grading. The second one was on BVG grading which is for the pre 81 cards. I caught the first few minutes of this session. It was getting interesting when they started talking about doctored cards and the various methods of that, and I got called away for my turn with James Spence Authentication. JSA had 3 authenticators with them, James himself, James Jr. and Matt. All seemed to be friendly enough. Some people down here might mistake them as being a little impatient, but you gotta realize that we are kinda laid back generally down here and don't get in much of a hurry for anything, and James grew up in New York so he's kinda always short and in a hurry. I brought my items up to them and they asked how many I had. I told them it depended on what the charges were. So we started going piece by piece through. Michael Jordan Poster, $100,00 (same cost as PSA/DNA so I agreed to that one), Ronald Reagan 2 cut autographs $100.00 EACH! (after almost falling backward out of my chair from sticker shock, I politely declined on those), Rosa Parks lithograph $35.00 (I agree to that one), Saddam Hussein custom cut autographed card $75.00 (PSA/DNA wants $250.00 for Hussein so I agreed to that one), Thurman Munson custom cut card $100.00 (I almost fell backward again, and declined), Bruce Frommong custom signed card (OJ's downfall) $20.00 (I first agreed to this one, but then they told me it would be an additional $20.00 to have it slabbed today, otherwise it would be a two week wait, so I declined once again), Muhammad Ali AKA Cassius Clay boxing glove $75.00 (I agree to this one as it seems a reasonable fee for the Champ, but first I ask to talk to them about it, since they had previously failed an Ali glove that I got from a secondary source before, and I want to make sure that they just don't summarily dismiss Ali's that are signed as Cassius Clay. So I pull out both the one they deemed to be fake as well as the one I got in person. They spent the time to show me what they look for in Ali autographs and once being shown, it was pretty obvious so I agreed to get my in person one done). Thus, the pieces that I gave to JSA were as follows: Jordan $100.00, Ali $75.00, Parks $35, and Hussein $75.00. James also gave out his cell number and said that while he was usually pretty busy at shows and stuff that he doesn't have a whole lot of time to spend on individuals questions, that he always liked to talk autographs and to learn himself so to call him on the cell if anything was needed. I then went to lunch and came back to the seminar. I decided to submit my 2001 Chi Chi Rodriguez Sign of the Times autographed card that I got during my 2001 Upper Deck SP Golf Rip a couple weeks ago as BGS was running a special for the day that I saw on the way to lunch of $20.00 for same day turnaround, so I dropped it off with them along with my 2001 Adam Scott Sign of the Times autographed card as well, another $20.00. Since they were manufacturer distributed, they didn't have to go through JSA/BGS. The third seminar was on Autograph collecting in general, and it was actually pretty novice level. They talked about TTM collecting, in person collecting, expectations, signing instruments, sources for addresses, sources for signings, etc. I pretty much learned nothing new in that. I then went back into JSA to get my results. Ali - Authenticated, Parks- Authenticated, Hussein- They didn't have enough knowledge in the room to make a decision on that one so they are taking it back to their historical authenticator (John Reznikoff, who is one of my friends and it will pass fine), Jordan- it passed the authenticators in the room, but before they will issue a letter they want their Jordan expert to see it, so they are having that one go through their Jordan expert (I had two of these and had one PSA/DNA'd in 2003 and sold it, so I know it's good and it will pass as well.) All in all, pretty good and satisfying results with JSA. I then went to the final seminar which was given by Spence himself and it was interesting. He talked about his background and his start. He talked about PSA/DNA, and mentioned the rough decision he had when it came time to renew his contract. He also claims now to have more revenue than PSA/DNA (but you have to remember that JSA is not publicly traded so it's impossible to know if this is true or not as JSA's books are private), but didnt' mention whether he makes more of a profit than PSA/DNA. He then showed stamps that people use to make modern baseballs appear old, and he also demonstrated his extensive Mantle exemplar database, as well as went over Mantle's signing habits from his time in high school until the time he died. He also showed examples of his spreadsheets on baseballs from the beginning of the ball until now that he says he developed to first be able to tell whether or not the ball was from the period being represented. He mentioned something that was quite interesting to me, he said he is considering opening up "branch offices" in various cities including Dallas (I was thinking that would be a really cool thing I could do on nights/weekends and would be a nice diversion from my day job of County Auditor. He said he was always looking for people who knew their stuff in different fields, so if it gets off the ground here, I'd love to be a part time Presidential authenticator/consultant type person) He finally finished up by taking a couple of questions and then left to catch his flight. I then got my submission results from BGS, the Chi Chi Rodriguez became the highest graded one to date by BGS at 9.5 for the card and 10 for the autograph (there is one other example, so it's a 1 of 2, I sure wish Beckett had a registry so I could cash in on it!), the Adam Scott got a disappointing 8.5 for the card and 10 for the autograph. Perhaps the best part of the whole day was spending time with my son who is 11 and he doesn't like sports/autographs, but he went with me and he seemed to enjoy the day. Got to share a pizza lunch with him and show him some of the things I like and he enjoyed listening to the seminars. All in all a nice Saturday.

Mike

Sorry for the lack of paragraphs, I know it makes for a jumbled reading mess, but it is what it is, I was never too much into English class.

HeritageAddict · January 31, 2009 9:14AM

Sounds like you had a great day Mike.

Ironmanfan · January 31, 2009 9:21AM

Sounds like a great day Mike.........

MeteoriteGuy · January 31, 2009 9:26AM

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a pretty cool experience.

daddymc · January 31, 2009 9:48AM

Wow, sounds like a pretty cool way to spend the day with your son.

BunchOBull · January 31, 2009 10:01AM

I'm glad to hear the day was a success and that it was enjoyed all the way around. Good to hear that Spence was agreeable too.

MBMiller25 · January 31, 2009 10:11AM

Sounds like an awesome day Mike. I was almost going to say I was jealous, but I taught my 4 year old how to throw a baseball properly today. Thats what life is all about!

leadoff4 · January 31, 2009 10:14AM

Thanks for sharing. Not into autographs but enjoyed the reading. Seems interesting. I've thought about trying a TTM a few times but haven't yet.

Has anyone been to a James Spence Authentication seminar? (I went today, results inside)

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