Crooked ebay seller fabricating coin histories
thelawnet
Posts: 107
Check this seller
The seller seems to be of Dutch origin, and claims "A numismatist has to know geography, archaeology, history, chemistry and ethnology. For numismatics is a multi-disciplinary science."
Unfortunately he's rewriting history to increase his profits, numismatics be damned.
How? He's selling VOC (Dutch East Indies) duits as 'New York pennies'. He sells worn common $1 VOC duits, puts them up for sale at $8 or $9 starting price and misrepresents them as having been used in New York.
Here's an example:
ebay
And blurb:
1790 COLONIAL NEW YORK TWO PENNY DOUBLE DUTCH VOC DUIT
400 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF HUDSON'S DISCOVERY OF MANHATTAN
VOC WAS THE INITIALS OF THE DUTCH EAST INDIA SHIPPING COMPANY IN
WHICH HENRY HUDSON WAS AN EMPLOYEE WHEN HE DISCOVERED
MANHATTAN ON SEPTEMBER 11, 1609 AND EXPLORED MAINE, CAPE COD
AND SAILED SOME DISTANCE UP THE HUDSON RIVER, WHICH NOW BEARS
HIS NAME. THE DUTCH WOULD LATER CLAIM THIS AREA AND ESTABLISH A
COLONY AS NEW AMSTERDAM, THOUGH IT IS SAID THAT HUDSON HIMSELF
GAVE THE NAME STATEN ISLAND (DUTCH: STAATEN EYLANDT) TO THAT
PART OF WHAT IS NOW NEW YORK, IN HONOR OF THE STATES-GENERAL
OR PARLIAMENT OF THE NETHERLANDS.
THE OBVERSE PICTURES TWO LIONS HOLDING THE SHIELD, WHICH IS THE
WAPEN OF UTRECHT. THE REVERSE IS THE VOC LOGO WITH A STAR ON TOP.
COIN IN VERY FINE COND, 25mm
The story is of course true, but the label 'New York Penny' is not. The British took possession of New York in the 1660s, so no more duits would have reached there after this time. The most likely dates to have circulated are early 17th Century Dutch duits. VOC duits weren't minted until 1726, and their appearance is quite dissimilar from 17th Century Dutch duits.
This 1776 VOC duit, which, like all the other VOC duits, never went close to New York, has been listed as:
"THE 'KEY' HISTORICAL COLONIAL DATED COIN"
on the spurious basis of it having a 1776 date, and given the utterly outlandish price of $39.76, for a coin worth $5 at the absolute maximum.
The unfortunate thing is that there are enough fools out there that this guy (and a few other sellers) can sustain quite a few 'New York Penny' sales each week and get away with selling $0.50 cent coins for $10. The irony is if the buyers searched for "netherlands indies" instead, they could buy the same coins (which to reiterate have no New York connection at all) for a tenth of the price.
The seller seems to be of Dutch origin, and claims "A numismatist has to know geography, archaeology, history, chemistry and ethnology. For numismatics is a multi-disciplinary science."
Unfortunately he's rewriting history to increase his profits, numismatics be damned.
How? He's selling VOC (Dutch East Indies) duits as 'New York pennies'. He sells worn common $1 VOC duits, puts them up for sale at $8 or $9 starting price and misrepresents them as having been used in New York.
Here's an example:
ebay
And blurb:
1790 COLONIAL NEW YORK TWO PENNY DOUBLE DUTCH VOC DUIT
400 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF HUDSON'S DISCOVERY OF MANHATTAN
VOC WAS THE INITIALS OF THE DUTCH EAST INDIA SHIPPING COMPANY IN
WHICH HENRY HUDSON WAS AN EMPLOYEE WHEN HE DISCOVERED
MANHATTAN ON SEPTEMBER 11, 1609 AND EXPLORED MAINE, CAPE COD
AND SAILED SOME DISTANCE UP THE HUDSON RIVER, WHICH NOW BEARS
HIS NAME. THE DUTCH WOULD LATER CLAIM THIS AREA AND ESTABLISH A
COLONY AS NEW AMSTERDAM, THOUGH IT IS SAID THAT HUDSON HIMSELF
GAVE THE NAME STATEN ISLAND (DUTCH: STAATEN EYLANDT) TO THAT
PART OF WHAT IS NOW NEW YORK, IN HONOR OF THE STATES-GENERAL
OR PARLIAMENT OF THE NETHERLANDS.
THE OBVERSE PICTURES TWO LIONS HOLDING THE SHIELD, WHICH IS THE
WAPEN OF UTRECHT. THE REVERSE IS THE VOC LOGO WITH A STAR ON TOP.
COIN IN VERY FINE COND, 25mm
The story is of course true, but the label 'New York Penny' is not. The British took possession of New York in the 1660s, so no more duits would have reached there after this time. The most likely dates to have circulated are early 17th Century Dutch duits. VOC duits weren't minted until 1726, and their appearance is quite dissimilar from 17th Century Dutch duits.
This 1776 VOC duit, which, like all the other VOC duits, never went close to New York, has been listed as:
"THE 'KEY' HISTORICAL COLONIAL DATED COIN"
on the spurious basis of it having a 1776 date, and given the utterly outlandish price of $39.76, for a coin worth $5 at the absolute maximum.
The unfortunate thing is that there are enough fools out there that this guy (and a few other sellers) can sustain quite a few 'New York Penny' sales each week and get away with selling $0.50 cent coins for $10. The irony is if the buyers searched for "netherlands indies" instead, they could buy the same coins (which to reiterate have no New York connection at all) for a tenth of the price.
0
Comments
FOR SALE Items
There's a sucker born every minute. Caveat emptor.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>It's called creative marketing. Misleading? Absolutely. Crooked? No. >>
Wrong!
It's called scamming the public.
More than "misleading"? Absolutely! A LIE is inherently implied.
Crooked, slimy and immoral? Without the slightest doubt!
Illegal? Maybe not.
<< <i>How is this any different from what QVC, HSN, or most of the full page advertisers in Coin World/Numismatic News do? It's called creative marketing. Misleading? Absolutely. Crooked? No.
>>
Granted he's not unique.
It's crooked because he's making profit by misleading people.
Here's some similar junk in creative packaging.:
Morgan Mint
$30
GovMint
They are exploiting people's ignorance. In fact, it's worse than that they are actively lying about the past in order to get people to buy what they think is 'American history'. It's a scam plain and simple.
It's worse than selling common Morgan Dollars for hundreds of dollars as some of these telemarketing companies do, those people are merely overcharging, that's no different to paying twice as much for a shirt because it comes from the Nike store, but actually lying about the history of the coin is wrong.
With a coin, all you need is the country, denomination, date and mintmark, weight (if needed), revelation of any major flaws, and a good picture. That's the way I sell them, and that's the way I buy them. Anything else in a listing is just noise and is probably trying to cover up or distract from something.
eBay listings should follow the KISS principle.
*shrug*
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>...There's a sucker born every minute. Caveat emptor. >>
I couldn't have said it better. Sorry, but I believe that people who are stupid enough to buy into Bull Sh1t deserve what they get. -Preussen
Todd
<< <i>Pruessen...we as knowlegable collectors have a obligation to help educate those who are new or uneducated about numismatics so that they don't fall prey to these idiots. >>
I disagree. I may choose to help educate new collectors but I have absolutely no obligation to do so. I've mentioned it here before, but I'll state it again. I believe that people must take responsibility for their own actions. If someone makes the decision to purchase something without having adequate knowledge and without asking questions, it is his/her problem. He/she alone is responsible for the outcome.
<< <i>...Consider yourself the "Police" of the coin world. >>
I absolutely could not disagree more. I am not the "Police" of the coin world or any other world, for that matter. I am responsible for my own actions, as are others for their actions. It is not my responsibility to run to ebay to report misleading auctions. I accepted the responsibility of learning enough to (hopefully) avoid being taken by scams, and so must others. I asked (and continue to ask) questions to help educate myself...so must others.
<< <i>... Your knowledge may keep some YN from making a big mistake. >>
If someone feels I might have valuable information or an informed opinion to share, they may ask and I will provide whatever help and/or guidance I can...but they must ask. That is their responsibility. -Preussen
<< <i>What gets me are the HUNDREDS of auctions on Ebay that stated, "Gradpaw's stash" or "From Grandpa's Horde"... "Unsearched rolls of Indian Head Pennies" or "Unsearched rolls of Wheat Pennys" .... "1909s VBD's have been found in these rolls".... That is the stuff that gets me. >>
Old Miss Haversham must be rolling over in her grave.
Obscurum per obscurius
will not make those same mistakes twice. All of the examples of these auctions taking advantage of people is prevalent
because there are a lot of unimformed people that think that they are finding that holy grail of a deal. "A fool and his money are soon parted" is pretty true
when you think about it. As others have said, you should do your research before you buy ANYTHING(cameras, computers, cars, etc...). I agree that these people that sell these coins are scumbags,
but an opportunity is there for them to profit and it is legal, so what can you do? Littleton Coins has made lots of money on the hobby taking advantage of young collectors or the unimformed
and they also could be the reason there are lots of collectors out there now that possibly would not be collecting now, if they hadn't been conned in the first place.
Yeah, a ten dollar coin is on a different level, and the buyer bears responsibility for not doing due diligence, but none of that absolves the seller from their wrongful practices.
My wantlist & references
<< <i>
<< <i>Pruessen...we as knowlegable collectors have a obligation to help educate those who are new or uneducated about numismatics so that they don't fall prey to these idiots. >>
I disagree. I may choose to help educate new collectors but I have absolutely no obligation to do so. I've mentioned it here before, but I'll state it again. I believe that people must take responsibility for their own actions. If someone makes the decision to purchase something without having adequate knowledge and without asking questions, it is his/her problem. He/she alone is responsible for the outcome.
<< <i>...Consider yourself the "Police" of the coin world. >>
I absolutely could not disagree more. I am not the "Police" of the coin world or any other world, for that matter. I am responsible for my own actions, as are others for their actions. It is not my responsibility to run to ebay to report misleading auctions. I accepted the responsibility of learning enough to (hopefully) avoid being taken by scams, and so must others. I asked (and continue to ask) questions to help educate myself...so must others.
<< <i>... Your knowledge may keep some YN from making a big mistake. >>
If someone feels I might have valuable information or an informed opinion to share, they may ask and I will provide whatever help and/or guidance I can...but they must ask. That is their responsibility. -Preussen >>
Preussen:
I couldn't agree with you more. It would take a lifetime to go through ebay and find all of the misleading, wrong, spurious and even (possibly) illegal listings and then try to correct them. Sometimes a hard bought leason is the greatest learning experience.
3Mark
<< <i>
<< <i>Pruessen...we as knowlegable collectors have a obligation to help educate those who are new or uneducated about numismatics so that they don't fall prey to these idiots. >>
I disagree. I may choose to help educate new collectors but I have absolutely no obligation to do so. I've mentioned it here before, but I'll state it again. I believe that people must take responsibility for their own actions. >>
The problem for me is I like these coins for what they are but the fake stories prevent me buying them because the price goes too high. I've got no issue with people putting a nice history on them and a load of pictures and so on. But if people put a true history, and said 'These coins were used in what is now Indonesia' the average reader is probably going to go 'Huh, Indonesia? Is that somewhere near India', and have no interest. If people appreciate them for what they are, fine, bid against me, no problems.
But when those bidders think they are buying a 'New York penny' and I know I'm buying a duit from the Netherlands Indies, I've got no chance. These sellers are indirectly ripping me off because (a) these coins are too expensive so I can't buy them, and (b) the supply of correctly described coins is reduced meaning prices must be slightly higher on them, and (c) some people will read the fake history on these coins, decide that they want to collect 'New York pennies', work out that they can get them cheaper elsewhere, and again drive prices up on those.
If a buyer goes into a coin shop sees one in the junk box and says to himself 'ah, a New York penny', based on what he's read on the internet, that's another side-effect of this fraud.
<< <i>The problem for me is I like these coins for what they are but the fake stories prevent me buying them because the price goes too high. I've got no issue with people putting a nice history on them and a load of pictures and so on. But if people put a true history, and said 'These coins were used in what is now Indonesia' the average reader is probably going to go 'Huh, Indonesia? Is that somewhere near India', and have no interest. If people appreciate them for what they are, fine, bid against me, no problems.
But when those bidders think they are buying a 'New York penny' and I know I'm buying a duit from the Netherlands Indies, I've got no chance. These sellers are indirectly ripping me off because (a) these coins are too expensive so I can't buy them, and (b) the supply of correctly described coins is reduced meaning prices must be slightly higher on them, and (c) some people will read the fake history on these coins, decide that they want to collect 'New York pennies', work out that they can get them cheaper elsewhere, and again drive prices up on those. >>
Respectfully, If you are into these, I would think you'd have better sources of material than the ripoff artists on ebay. I'm not trying to be smart, but it seems to me that you're just upset at being outbid in an auction. It happens to all of us, whether there is incorrect hype or not. If I bid $10 on a $10 coin and two morons bid $99 and $100 respectively, causing the seller puts the next one up starting at $99, does it matter whether it was incorrect hype or just plain stupidity that caused the morons to overbid and drive the price up?
<< <i>If a buyer goes into a coin shop sees one in the junk box and says to himself 'ah, a New York penny', based on what he's read on the internet, that's another side-effect of this fraud. >>
There is no cure for "stupid." -Preussen
Todd
<< <i>I'll say this to anyone that feels they have no obligation to help others, this is what is wrong with the world today. No one gives a RATS ASS about others. I understand that people MUST be responsible for their actions but not everyone that buys on ebay is capable of doing full fledged research on one coin. I think that you as a MORAL citizen DO have an obligation to report any false auction on ebay. Preying on the weak is a cowards way of doing things and by not reporting this type of stuff you are enabling them to continue. I can see where a bad purchase may have taught you a lesson but it would have been much nicer to have had someone point the wrong out to you before you lost your money. Life examples are great but not the only way to learn. And to answer the person that says there is no way to report all the bad auctions, you sir are right....HOWEVER... if you run across one that is bad you should report it. I run into this everyday at work. People gripe and moan about dope deals they see going down but fail to call the cops when they are going down. If you aren't part of the solution then you are simply part of the problem.....
Todd >>
Very well said.
<< <i>I'll say this to anyone that feels they have no obligation to help others, this is what is wrong with the world today. No one gives a RATS ASS about others. I understand that people MUST be responsible for their actions but not everyone that buys on ebay is capable of doing full fledged research on one coin. I think that you as a MORAL citizen DO have an obligation to report any false auction on ebay. Preying on the weak is a cowards way of doing things and by not reporting this type of stuff you are enabling them to continue. I can see where a bad purchase may have taught you a lesson but it would have been much nicer to have had someone point the wrong out to you before you lost your money. Life examples are great but not the only way to learn. And to answer the person that says there is no way to report all the bad auctions, you sir are right....HOWEVER... if you run across one that is bad you should report it. I run into this everyday at work. People gripe and moan about dope deals they see going down but fail to call the cops when they are going down. If you aren't part of the solution then you are simply part of the problem..... >>
Todd: You and others are free to think, feel and do as you please, but in no way will I allow you to define my obligations and responsibilities. If searching ebay and the rest of the "coin world" for injustices and inequities & reporting them floats your boat, have at it. If you don’t like my opinion on the subject, that’s totally fine with me. -Preussen
<< <i>...I think that you as a MORAL citizen DO have an obligation to report any false auction on ebay. .. >>
I just had to revisit this one...gotta be one of the most asinine things I've read in quite some time...good lord. -Preussen
<< <i>
<< <i>...I think that you as a MORAL citizen DO have an obligation to report any false auction on ebay. .. >>
I just had to revisit this one...gotta be one of the most asinine things I've read in quite some time...good lord. -Preussen >>
I guess I will have to say this again. It would take more than a lifetime to correct all the "false" auctions on ebay. I totally agree with Preussen on this one.3Mark
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem for me is I like these coins for what they are but the fake stories prevent me buying them because the price goes too high. I've got no issue with people putting a nice history on them and a load of pictures and so on. But if people put a true history, and said 'These coins were used in what is now Indonesia' the average reader is probably going to go 'Huh, Indonesia? Is that somewhere near India', and have no interest. If people appreciate them for what they are, fine, bid against me, no problems.
But when those bidders think they are buying a 'New York penny' and I know I'm buying a duit from the Netherlands Indies, I've got no chance. These sellers are indirectly ripping me off because (a) these coins are too expensive so I can't buy them, and (b) the supply of correctly described coins is reduced meaning prices must be slightly higher on them, and (c) some people will read the fake history on these coins, decide that they want to collect 'New York pennies', work out that they can get them cheaper elsewhere, and again drive prices up on those. >>
Respectfully, If you are into these, I would think you'd have better sources of material than the ripoff artists on ebay. I'm not trying to be smart, but it seems to me that you're just upset at being outbid in an auction. It happens to all of us, whether there is incorrect hype or not. If I bid $10 on a $10 coin and two morons bid $99 and $100 respectively, causing the seller puts the next one up starting at $99, does it matter whether it was incorrect hype or just plain stupidity that caused the morons to overbid and drive the price up? >>
Outbid? I don't even START bidding on these coins. They're listed starting at $7 for skanky worn examples and $10 for VF examples. I end up paying $2-$4 for VF coins (also on ebay, but minus the BS history).
I'm not some kind of vigilante trying to police the whole of ebay, I see people ripping people off in an area I deal with, and I think it's wrong.
<< <i>I'm not some kind of vigilante trying to police the whole of ebay, I see people ripping people off in an area I deal with, and I think it's wrong. >>
That seems perfectly logical to me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with people taking whatever action they feel is appropriate to combat scumbag sellers; I just take exception to someone telling me that I am obligated to do so and saying that I am "immoral" if I don't. -Preussen
<< <i>I wasn't asking you to search for these type of auctions, if you read what I said... if you FIND one (as you are searching for something else) then report it. Say you are looking for a British trade dollar on there and happen to run across a counterfeit one. I would IMPLORE you to contact ebay about the auction. 5 minutes of your time??? >>
My experience is ebay lack the expertise to do anything about these and don't permit you to educate them. If you go to the report auction page, and select 'misleading description', it just asks for the item number, there's no space to explain what's wrong.
So I've reported what I know to be counterfeits and they do nothing.
Here's a counterfeit item on sale. I informed the seller, he asked me for evidence that it was counterfeit, I sent him links, the item is still up. Not only that, but he's actually declined some unsuspecting buyer's 'best offer'.
Do you think I should buy this item and then refuse to pay to take it off the market?
It's the same as a seller boasting an 8 reales from Peru as a "Pillar Dollar"... Likely it wasn't used in America, but those type coins were. There's really no way of telling whether it was used as a US dollar - ever. It's just terribly unlikely for the majority of the issue.
I agree this is hype, but the seller has really not claimed anything that added value to the product. An 8 reales books for X dollars in X condition - there is no footnote about 8 reales being worth more if they circulated in the US, but if you claim it, you're likely to get a few more bids.
<< <i>I wasn't asking you to search for these type of auctions, if you read what I said... if you FIND one (as you are searching for something else) then report it. Say you are looking for a British trade dollar on there and happen to run across a counterfeit one. I would IMPLORE you to contact ebay about the auction. 5 minutes of your time??? >>
I won't need to; I'm sure you will find it and do your moral duty. -Preussen
<< <i>Well, not to split hairs but you are no more accurate than the seller. I don't mean that as a slight - it's just you are claiming the reverse, which is equally incorrect. during this time the US had no currency of it's own, and many foreign coins circulated as accepted currency.
It's the same as a seller boasting an 8 reales from Peru as a "Pillar Dollar"... Likely it wasn't used in America, but those type coins were. There's really no way of telling whether it was used as a US dollar - ever. It's just terribly unlikely for the majority of the issue.
I agree this is hype, but the seller has really not claimed anything that added value to the product. An 8 reales books for X dollars in X condition - there is no footnote about 8 reales being worth more if they circulated in the US, but if you claim it, you're likely to get a few more bids. >>
No that's no the case. I'll take a given Dutch 5 or 10 gold guilder coin as a 'Netherlands Indies' coin, even though a particular coin maybe never made it there, because they were legal tender there. Ditto with 8 Reales, also legal tender at one time. No big deal, it's a valid to claim 'maybe' this coin was used in a particular place.
But the thing is these coins did not circulate in the US. Not one. There's a historical record, and VOC duits are not part of it.
What these sellers are doing is pretending that an 18th-19th Century coin that is cheap and common that was used in the Dutch Indies is actually a 17th Century coin that is much scarcer and was used in The Netherlands and also circulated in New York at one time. They are totally different coins, the VOC ones were worth 1/4 of a silver stuiver, the Dutch 1/8 of a stuiver. You might as well claim that Australian Aboriginal coinage (if they have any) is a 'New York penny'.
They aren't even of the right period. The double duit in the OP is a '1790' star mintmark coin, which means it was minted 1840-1843. The US had plenty of currency at that time.
Todd, I know you mean well by your actions, but bottom line: it won't do any good.
eBay doesn't employ anyone who is knowledgeable about coins, and they aren't about to spend the time to research whether the FACTS within a listing are accurate. There are simply too many reports across all of the categories to process. Unless what you are reporting is an outright LISTING VIOLATION, the report will be summarily deleted. The minimum-wage drones that are employed to process all of these reports do not have the ability, authority, or time to make these kinds of determinations.
Unless the violation is clear-cut (keyword spamming, unauthorized payment methods, unapproved slabbing company, stolen images, etc.) it will not be acted upon. Disagreement as to historical accuracy does NOT constitute a listing violation.
Quite frankly, with the myriad of fraud and outright lies I see on eBay, I only ever bother reporting ones that have a fighting chance of being taken down.
And these aren't them.
If it makes YOU feel better to report these auctions, then fine and dandy. Knock yourself out. But please don't delude yourself into thinking it will do any good whatsoever, because it won't. And chastising the rest of us for not engaging in your exercise in futility is just wrong.
Sorry.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>So I've reported what I know to be counterfeits and they do nothing.
Here's a counterfeit item on sale. I informed the seller, he asked me for evidence that it was counterfeit, I sent him links, the item is still up. Not only that, but he's actually declined some unsuspecting buyer's 'best offer'.
Do you think I should buy this item and then refuse to pay to take it off the market? >>
I have had the same experience with Chinese counterfeits of US Bust Dollars.
Ebay did nothing.
And no, I don't advise that you purchase and refuse to pay, since that is what I did, and ebay suspended MY account, after I had several times told ebay about this seller, and they kept letting his auctions complete. I gave them the full diagnostic method of confirming that what I was saying was true, and they could have verified they were cast counterfeits simply from the images the seller provided, IF you knew where and what to look for, and I supplied them with specific information as to such every time I reported his auctions. But when ebay let one complete for over $5,000 I decided would outbid everyone (I had already notified ebay 4 days before, then two days before, then hours before it completed, and they did nothing. But when I won and refused to pay, and left feedback that he was selling counterfeits, ebay suspended MY account and let him keep on selling.
Eventually ebay UNsuspended my account and removed the extremely vulgar feedback that seller had left for me, but previously they refused to do so, even when I gave them a link to their own policy about vulgar feedback being removed. But that was during the time several manufacturers of handbags and clothing filed a class action lawsuit against ebay for allowing counterfeits to continue to sell even after they were told they were counterfeits. I suspect that ebay didn't want any more people joining in that lawsuit, so they reinstated my account.
Here is a more detailed on-line account of ebay's culpabilty in the selling of counterfeits.
The above link takes you down to my posted reply to an online article titled "eBay taking STRONG measures against fraudsters and counterfeiters!" Yeah, right!
<< <i>No that's no the case. I'll take a given Dutch 5 or 10 gold guilder coin as a 'Netherlands Indies' coin, even though a particular coin maybe never made it there, because they were legal tender there. Ditto with 8 Reales, also legal tender at one time. No big deal, it's a valid to claim 'maybe' this coin was used in a particular place.
But the thing is these coins did not circulate in the US. Not one. There's a historical record, and VOC duits are not part of it.
What these sellers are doing is pretending that an 18th-19th Century coin that is cheap and common that was used in the Dutch Indies is actually a 17th Century coin that is much scarcer and was used in The Netherlands and also circulated in New York at one time. They are totally different coins, the VOC ones were worth 1/4 of a silver stuiver, the Dutch 1/8 of a stuiver. You might as well claim that Australian Aboriginal coinage (if they have any) is a 'New York penny'.
They aren't even of the right period. The double duit in the OP is a '1790' star mintmark coin, which means it was minted 1840-1843. The US had plenty of currency at that time. >>
Well, I don't think the 8 reales were ever legal tender - they were proposed as legal tender - but they were accepted in trade, due to lack of legal tender. Same with the duits. Same with any currency with specie value... Now, with all the trade going on at the time, and the VOC having the the authority to mint its own coin and considering the reach it had in global economics, to claim that not one circulated - well, it may be true - but it's unrealistic to know.
But again, I'm not arguing with you. It's a bogus sales tactic - much like selling a milled 8 reales, or gold escudo, as a "pirate coin", when piracy had been mostly abolished by that time... it's historically inaccurate... but it's also like saying 'this coin might have been carried by Washington, himself!!' - yeah, overwhelmingly improbable, but maybe...
I'll grant you the 1790 mint with the star mark (I actually didn't know that, so thanks for the info.). But again, it's not really the point. Over the years, i've collected 2 reales for quite a while - and I saw people over-paying for 'pirate coins', after recent box office explosions... they aren't really pirate coins at all, but I guess they could be, if people wanted to imagine them that way... I don't know, never really saw that as anything more than your everyday marketing gimic. Maybe I should be more offended than I am.
<< <i>
<< <i>So I've reported what I know to be counterfeits and they do nothing.
Here's a counterfeit item on sale. I informed the seller, he asked me for evidence that it was counterfeit, I sent him links, the item is still up. Not only that, but he's actually declined some unsuspecting buyer's 'best offer'.
Do you think I should buy this item and then refuse to pay to take it off the market? >>
I have had the same experience with Chinese counterfeits of US Bust Dollars.
Ebay did nothing.
And no, I don't advise that you purchase and refuse to pay, since that is what I did, and ebay suspended MY account, after I had several times told ebay about this seller, and they kept letting his auctions complete. I gave them the full diagnostic method of confirming that what I was saying was true, and they could have verified they were cast counterfeits simply from the images the seller provided, IF you knew where and what to look for, and I supplied them with specific information as to such every time I reported his auctions. But when ebay let one complete for over $5,000 I decided would outbid everyone (I had already notified ebay 4 days before, then two days before, then hours before it completed, and they did nothing. But when I won and refused to pay, and left feedback that he was selling counterfeits, ebay suspended MY account and let him keep on selling.
Eventually ebay UNsuspended my account and removed the extremely vulgar feedback that seller had left for me, but previously they refused to do so, even when I gave them a link to their own policy about vulgar feedback being removed. But that was during the time several manufacturers of handbags and clothing filed a class action lawsuit against ebay for allowing counterfeits to continue to sell even after they were told they were counterfeits. I suspect that ebay didn't want any more people joining in that lawsuit, so they reinstated my account.
Here is a more detailed on-line account of ebay's culpabilty in the selling of counterfeits.
The above link takes you down to my posted reply to an online article titled "eBay taking STRONG measures against fraudsters and counterfeiters!" Yeah, right! >>
It's too late. I already 'bought' the item. Will wait and see what happens.
Re ebay and fakes, I had an issue with a seller last year. I bought a camera battery listed on ebay as 'Genuine'. It was a pretty obvious fake, packaging wasn't sealed, the battery was light, etc.
Anyway the seller was a major power seller putting through 3000+ sales of counterfeit items per month on ebay. There were a fair few reports online, people had bought their fake Chinese crap, they'd reported them to ebay, ebay did nothing. The seller also had a system where he ran a program that gave negative feedback automatically accusing the buyer of fraud if they left negative feedback. They would then offer 'mutually withdrawn feedback'. This seller had thousands of withdrawn feedback.
I was pretty disgusted at what they were getting away with, so I found the company directors' names, their home addresses, the company registered address, and listed several dozen counterfeit items that the seller was selling. I also linked to negative feedback calling it fake, to forum reports of it being fake, etc. I sent it off to the Trading Standards division where the seller operates. They didn't even bother to respond. I also called the police, who didn't care. I finally called Trading Standards who just put me through to a drone with a script who tried to teach me about consumer rights and had no idea how to actually take a report about a largescale criminal operation.
In the end I contacted the manufacturer and spoke to their IP lawyer who was helpful. They said they would investigate, but a few weeks later when I checked ebay again all of the sellers 'genuine' fake items had disappeared over night. It seems that ebay were getting sued for hundreds of millions of dollars by Chanel or somebody like that and they suddenly realised that the fees from crooks were not going to cover the bill. So somehow the items all just disappeared. When I contacted the manufacturer's lawyer again they said they had been unable to gather any evidence, so the seller is still there, still selling with over a quarter of a million feedback score, and no criminal sanctions at all. (Still gets lots of bad feedback though.)
Todd
<< <i> On my desk at work I have a big 12"x12" sign that says, "If you're not outraged then you're not paying attention!"
Todd >>
I'm glad I'm not the only one that gets SUPER MAD at 12"x12" signs! My therapist said it wasn't normal... Now we can start a group.
(yeah, I shoulda resisted and just let this thread die...)
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