Brunswick-Luneburg or Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel

CoinKing · January 8, 2009 4:03AM

Something that's always bugged me.

The 1915 3 and 5 Mark pieces from Brunswick...

Krause lists them under Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel

Money-Trend and Muenzen-Revue list them under Braunschweig-Lueneburg (Brunswick-Luneburg)

Jaeger lists them under Braunschweig (Brunswick)

The common varieties of these coins say "Braunschweig u. Lueneb"; the rarer varieties just "Braunschweig"

Which is correct (or the most correct)?

ajaan · January 8, 2009 4:11AM

Can't answer your question. I have a related on though. Did Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel really exist in 1915? Didn't it cease to exist after 1871? Or did it just become part of the German Empire? These German States confuse the heck out of me and my ancestors came from one of them.

lordmarcovan · January 8, 2009 4:21AM

Even though I am a resident of Brunswick (Georgia), I must confess that all of the combinations and permutations of Brunswick-Whatever-Whatever have confused me, too. For example, I just sold this coin for my consignor, who had it noted as "Brunswick-Luneberg" on the invoice, but Krause had it under Brunswick-Luneberg-Celle.

Doogy · January 8, 2009 4:38AM

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

ColinCMR · January 8, 2009 5:55AM

unkunks

spoon · January 8, 2009 6:00AM

I'd just leave it as simply "Brunswick". That's what the contemporary maps I've seen labeled the territory as. And to my understanding all lines but that of Ernst August were defunct.

CoinKing · January 8, 2009 6:02AM

Ajaan,

I agree with you that Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel did not exist in 1915. My reading of the Internet(?) is that in 1915 it was just a Duchy called Brunswick. If that's the case, why did they add Luneburg to some of the coins and why does Krause list it under Wolfenbuttel at all?

Help!

lordmarcovan · January 8, 2009 6:02AM

That's what it says on the map of our fair city, too. Just "Brunswick".

Speaking of which, I'm headed there now. Gotta get to the PO downtown.

3Mark · January 8, 2009 6:05AM

Ron:

I have always called them Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel and I like the "Wolfenbuttel" part because that's where Jägermeister is made

I'll ask Dirk this evening when I talk to him.

3Mark

spoon · January 8, 2009 6:10AM

Here's the history of Brunswick currency, in German. It's more a review of the standards and such, but I'm not seeing any distinction between lines or locales. But it is Wikipedia. I really don't think there was a difference by the late 1800s. It was simply "Herzogtum Braunschweig" - Duchy of Brunswick. Perhaps there is a distinction in where the currency was issued and circulated (Luneburg vs cities of Brunswick, Wolfenbuttel, etc), but I doubt it. I'm still interested in why they would have gone out of their way to add the "und Lüneburg" to the legends, but alas I barely know what I'm talking about as it is!

Edit - guess I'm a slow typist!

MacCrimmon · January 8, 2009 6:42AM

Here's the English version from wiki

Sapyx · January 8, 2009 5:51PM

Prior to the Napoleonic Wars, there were basically only two remaining branches of the House of Brunswick: the Electorate of Brunswick-Luneberg (which changed names, depending on which city the ruler happened to prefer living in) and the Duchy of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel.

By the end of the Wars and the Congress of Vienna, the Electorate of Brunswick-Luneberg had evolved into the Kingdom of Hanover. Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel was still a Duchy, and since no other country was known as "Brunswick", the "Wolfenbuttel" could be dropped in conventional use. Brunswick and Hanover were completely separate though neighbouring countries (see map), ruled over by separate branches of the family.

Hanover (formerly Brunswick-Luneberg) had the poor judgement to side with the Austrians against the Prussians in the War of 1866. They lost, and Hanover was wiped off the map; the royal titles were abolished and the territory of Hanover was assimilated directly into Prussia.

Brunswick (formerly Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel) wisely sided with the Prussians, and remained an independent country after 1866, voluntarily joining the German Empire in 1871 as a member-state. After the assimilation of Hannover, it was almost completely surrounded by Prussia, as you can see from this later map.

The last Duke of the House of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, William VIII, died in 1884 without direct male descendants. The now-landless former King George V of Hanover immediately put in a claim to the throne as the closest male heir, but the House of Hanover was still in Prussia's bad books, and Prussia rejected such claims. From 1884 to 1913, Prussia (which had by then become the dominant power in the new German Empire) appointed Regents for the Duchy of Brunswick in an effort to forestall a return of a Hanoverian monarch. It wasn't until 1913 that Ernst August III, grandson of George V of Hanover and son-in-law of the Prussian King and Emperor William II, became the last ruler of Brunswick.

His lands and titles, however, were for the old Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, not the old Brunswick-Luneberg. I would assume the use of "Luneberg" on the 1913 Royal Wedding & Accession coins of this ruler was either in error, or only in an honorific sense, acknowledging that he was a descendant of the House of Hanover.

So to answer your question, the coins "should" be filed under either Brunswick or Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, since that was the name of the state that issued them.

CoinKing · January 9, 2009 12:16AM

<< <i>Prior to the Napoleonic Wars, there were basically only two remaining branches of the House of Brunswick: the Electorate of Brunswick-Luneberg (which changed names, depending on which city the ruler happened to prefer living in) and the Duchy of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel.

By the end of the Wars and the Congress of Vienna, the Electorate of Brunswick-Luneberg had evolved into the Kingdom of Hanover. Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel was still a Duchy, and since no other country was known as "Brunswick", the "Wolfenbuttel" could be dropped in conventional use. Brunswick and Hanover were completely separate though neighbouring countries (see map), ruled over by separate branches of the family.

Hanover (formerly Brunswick-Luneberg) had the poor judgement to side with the Austrians against the Prussians in the War of 1866. They lost, and Hanover was wiped off the map; the royal titles were abolished and the territory of Hanover was assimilated directly into Prussia.

Brunswick (formerly Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel) wisely sided with the Prussians, and remained an independent country after 1866, voluntarily joining the German Empire in 1871 as a member-state. After the assimilation of Hannover, it was almost completely surrounded by Prussia, as you can see from this later map.

The last Duke of the House of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, William VIII, died in 1884 without direct male descendants. The now-landless former King George V of Hanover immediately put in a claim to the throne as the closest male heir, but the House of Hanover was still in Prussia's bad books, and Prussia rejected such claims. From 1884 to 1913, Prussia (which had by then become the dominant power in the new German Empire) appointed Regents for the Duchy of Brunswick in an effort to forestall a return of a Hanoverian monarch. It wasn't until 1913 that Ernst August III, grandson of George V of Hanover and son-in-law of the Prussian King and Emperor William II, became the last ruler of Brunswick.

His lands and titles, however, were for the old Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, not the old Brunswick-Luneberg. I would assume the use of "Luneberg" on the 1913 Royal Wedding & Accession coins of this ruler was either in error, or only in an honorific sense, acknowledging that he was a descendant of the House of Hanover.

So to answer your question, the coins "should" be filed under either Brunswick or Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, since that was the name of the state that issued them. >>

Sapyx,

Thanks for this excellent synopsis. You've distilled several centuries into a very understandable format.

ajaan · January 9, 2009 3:40AM

I think Sapyx might be bordering on a DPOTD award with that reply.

Bjorn · January 10, 2009 3:13AM

Just to add in, the Dukes of Brunswick-Luneburg were also the Kings of Great Britain from 1714 until 1837 - while Victoria inherited the throne of Great Britain, Salic Law in Brunswick-Luneburg (Hanover by this point) prevented her from also becoming queen there, resulting in her uncle becoming ruler of Hanover. If she had become Queen of Hanover, it may have survived... as an aside, the current German state of Niedersachsen, or Lower Saxony, has borders that are fairly similar to the old kingdom.

Brunswick-Luneburg or Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel

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