Ancient Chinese Coins
OM1729
Posts: 8
Can anyone help with identification of the attached Chinese coins?
They originate from the estate of a European family living in Shanghai from approx. 1925 to 1949. In other words, if they are fake they are with certainty rather old fakes.
Appreciate any help.
They originate from the estate of a European family living in Shanghai from approx. 1925 to 1949. In other words, if they are fake they are with certainty rather old fakes.
Appreciate any help.
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Comments
I can help you with the round ones though. Can you post images that are not so dark? In some cases I cannot read the characters. A little lightening would go a long way.
Now, 1123/1124 is from the late Yuan/early Ming dynasty (1361-1368). If you lighten the image I can tell you the mint and the catalogue number. Also, 1124 is upside down.
1125/1126 is probably a reproduction of a Late Shu (938-965 AD) piece. Authentic pieces are very rare and the calligraphy on your example doesn't match anything in my references.
1128/1129 looks like it might be from the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279 AD) but I need a lighter image.
[Edited to correct Yuan/Ming dates]
My only reference for old Chinese coins is the Jen catalogue; this book does have some errors and omissions, but I'm reading it as best as I can.
Putting the scale in the pic certainly helps a lot.
#1112: Spade coin from the city of Anyi, kingdom of Wei, circa 250 BC. The weight will tell you the denomination; the main unit of weight is the jin, which weighed abour 14 grams; given the size, I suspect this is a 2 jin. CV around $100-$150, depending on denomination.
#1113: Similar to above, though the round feet are odd for the period.
#1118: Best match is the one labelled the "Ma Yong" spade; circa 230 BC, CV $35.
#1119: "8 character" spade from the Liang period of Wei kingdom, circa 350 BC. CV $250.
#1120: I can't see any details of the design on this one, but from ther shape I'd guess a Wu An spade; CV $30
#1123/1124: Da Zhong Tong Bao large 10 cash coin, early Ming Dynasty (1361-1368 AD). The cross on the back is the Chinese number "10" and confirms this is a 10 cash. I can't read the other character on the back, but the CV for such types is in the $25 to $90 range.
#1125/1126: Five Dynasties period, Guang Zheng Tong Bao, from the Posterior Shu dynasty. These are very scarce, and come in copper (CV $2000) and iron (CV $400). It's also not recorded as being that large. This one is, sadly, almost certainly fake.
#1127 and 1128/1129: Sorry, I can't see enough details on these pics to tell anything meaningful, apart from the last one seems to be a 10 cash of some kind.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
I am chastened. You are right about the date on the Dazhong Tongbao (minted 1361-1368).
English text on Dazhong Tongbao
Several have mentioned that 1125/1126 is likely fake. I find it hard to believe, given my knowledge of the coins history. They were given to my wife by an elderly gentleman, who was born in Shanghai, son of a British railroad construction executive. The family was forced to leave China in 1949 at the initiation of the Chinese revolution. According to our friend, the coins were found during railroad excavations. He was an avid collector and had a very valuable collection of British stamps. As I mentioned in my initial post if any of the coins are fake, they would have to predate 1949. Were fake items commonly produced in China before the revolution? It appears to be made of copper, as it has some green oxidation on the "blank" side (1126), and exhibits an overall dark copper tone.
Here are larger, brighter pictures of 1125/1126.
<< <i>Improved pictures for 1123/1124: >>
Well, Ding Fubao does not list this piece. It is either a fantasy or the good Mr. Ding didn't include it. I will see if I can find out more in a bit.
<< <i>Improved pictures of 1128/1129: >>
Again, this looks like a Southern Song piece but it is not listed in Ding Fubao. I suspect it is a fantasy piece. The quality of the casting also suggests that it is fake.
<< <i>Thanks very much to those that have responded so far. Apologies for the bad quality pictures. I will post better pictures later this evening.
Several have mentioned that 1125/1126 is likely fake. I find it hard to believe, given my knowledge of the coins history. They were given to my wife by an elderly gentleman, who was born in Shanghai, son of a British railroad construction executive. The family was forced to leave China in 1949 at the initiation of the Chinese revolution. According to our friend, the coins were found during railroad excavations. He was an avid collector and had a very valuable collection of British stamps. As I mentioned in my initial post if any of the coins are fake, they would have to predate 1949. Were fake items commonly produced in China before the revolution? It appears to be made of copper, as it has some green oxidation on the "blank" side (1126), and exhibits an overall dark copper tone. >>
I have the feeling that all three of the round coins are fake/fantasies. There have been fake Chinese coins ever since there were Chinese coins. In fact, that is true of coins in general. Counterfeits are by no means a modern phenomenon. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful but I have heard the proposition that a cash coin, usually a rare one, must be real because it comes from an older collection on more than one occasion. The age of the collection doesn't really have any bearing on the authenticity of the coin.
The reasons I am suspicious of the three round coins are:
1. They are not listed in Ding Fubao's references which are the most complete that I know of. In the case of 1125/1126, the type is listed and is a well-known rarity but your example does not match the catalogued examples.
2. The rims seem to vary in thickness and the coins are out of round. This is not always a sure sign of a counterfeit but even in very old coins rims were of consistent thickness and the coins were very close to round.
3. The characters on the piece that resemble a Southern Song issue have a mushy, rounded appearance, which is often associated with counterfeits of more recent manufacture (meaning, say, 20th century). The Jen book has a nice description of this phenomenon.
As for the excavation story, I am not convinced the round coins spent much time in the ground. The Dazhong Tongbao in particular looks far too nice to have been in the ground for any length of time.
Now, these coins are not in my area of expertise. In fact, I don't know that I can say that any coins are really in my field of expertise, so you would be wise to seek second, third, and fourth opinions. Have you been to www.zeno.com? This is an excellent site for Asian coinage of all types and there are people there far more knowlegable than I am. If you do end up posting over there, do tell us what the response is. I would like know what these are.
Guangzheng Tongbao
Sumnon:
Thanks for all your comments. I tend to think you are correct based on the roundness and rim thickness arguments. I also thought it looked suspicious that some of the figures are connected with the rim, whereas the catalogs seem to show them non-connected. You mention the lack of patina on the round coins; they do have faint ingrained copper oxidation, but I suspect they have all been cleaned and rubbed.
All the spade coins have significant patina, green copper corrosion, with some of them being significantly eroded. Whether that would be ancient looking, I have no idea. I will post better pictures for anyone interested.
Also, I was not aware of zeno.com. I will post there and let you all know of the feedback.
In any case this experience leaves me with the impression that collection of Chinese ancient coins is not for the faint-hearted...
At any rate, if you are interested in collecting cash coins, you should spend some time getting to know what authentic examples should look like. Not only that, you can spend some time looking at fakes as well. In many cases fakes are recognizable instantly but, as the zeno.com galleries illustrate all too well, there are some very good fakes out there.