Grade my coin (1793 duit)
thelawnet
Posts: 107
I just purchased this 1793 Dutch East Indies (VOC) duit on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=200273961647
I don't know much about coin grading, could you assist?
Here are super-sized scans:
scan 1
scan 2
These coins are very thin coppers, common but rare in high grade.
The description is:
KM# 111.1
Denomination Duit
Country Netherlands East Indies
Government United East India Company
Coinage Type Milled Coinage
Mint Utrecht
Composition Copper
Description Obverse Crowned Utrecht arms with lion supporters
Description Reverse VOC monogram, date below
There are a couple pictured here:
rondomons
This is a contemporary Utrecht duit allegedly in Unc. condition for comparison, albeit of a different type:
ebay
And another:
ebay
Please could you offer some guidance as to how you determine the grade based on specific aspects of the coin?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=200273961647
I don't know much about coin grading, could you assist?
Here are super-sized scans:
scan 1
scan 2
These coins are very thin coppers, common but rare in high grade.
The description is:
KM# 111.1
Denomination Duit
Country Netherlands East Indies
Government United East India Company
Coinage Type Milled Coinage
Mint Utrecht
Composition Copper
Description Obverse Crowned Utrecht arms with lion supporters
Description Reverse VOC monogram, date below
There are a couple pictured here:
rondomons
This is a contemporary Utrecht duit allegedly in Unc. condition for comparison, albeit of a different type:
ebay
And another:
ebay
Please could you offer some guidance as to how you determine the grade based on specific aspects of the coin?
0
Comments
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
Could you clarify on what makes it VF or XF?
I guess I should have photographed it rather than scanned it.
Comparing with the UNC. example here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NETH-E-INDIES-INDONESIA-RARE-GRADE-DUIT-179O-UNC_W0QQitemZ170255957329QQihZ007QQcategoryZ45154QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
the coin appears to retain its detail, albeit that the lion's mane is perhaps somewhat rubbed.
Yours is a nice example, maybe a bit better than average. I'd agree with calling it VF. For these to get XF it'd need cleaner surfaces and less wear on the lions. I wouldn't bother trying to clean it, considering the wear it'd just look funny. It's nice the way it is.
On the subject of grading these, here's a type that's hard to grade:
Kingdom of Holland under Louis Napoleon, Java 1 duit, 1808, was KM223
Since the design is so plain you have to pay attention to the sharpness of the lettering and condition of the flan. My pics really don't do this one justice, but I'd call it a strong XF. (BTW, this one is for sale
And to use this thread as an excuse to post some more of my duits
Holland, 1739
West Frisia, 1739
Netherlands Indies, 1808
This one has a really nice color that doesn't come out in the pics.
My wantlist & references
I had a look on ebay, there are 35 VOC duits up for auction at the moment, none look better than VF. The only one is the $100 UNC on B-I-N I linked to above.
spoon's duits are exceptional and no doubt don't come around in that condition too often.
...
It just takes a bit of patience and luck to find them. The two 1739 coins came from an old cache, and my source apparently still has a few left (he has one on ebay right now! I think it'll probably go for $50-80).
Just for an idea to how much these run, this is how much I paid for each of mine, all from ebay, in order of posting: $60 (this is a tough coin!), $78, $105 and $6 (this one was luck! also got some 1850s 1/10g's in UNC for less than $5 apiece from him).
Somewhat relatedly, frosty silver:
My wantlist & references
<< <i>Yep, just imagine how tough it is to find German copper in UNC!
It just takes a bit of patience and luck to find them. The two 1739 coins came from an old cache, and my source apparently still has a few left (he has one on ebay right now! I think it'll probably go for $50-80).
Just for an idea to how much these run, this is how much I paid for each of mine, all from ebay, in order of posting: $60 (this is a tough coin!), $78, $105 and $6 (this one was luck! also got some 1850s 1/10g's in UNC for less than $5 apiece from him).
>>
Ok, so those $78 and $105 coins are both listed as $20 XF, $40 UNC, and yours are BU.
This coin
http://cgi.ebay.com/NETH-E-INDIES-INDONESIA-RARE-GRADE-DUIT-179O-UNC_W0QQitemZ170255957329QQihZ007QQcategoryZ45154QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
doesn't seem quite as nice and is only catalogued at $6 in XF, with no higher grades listed.
What would be a fair price?
Clearly less than the $99 they are asking.
...
For that one, if it were in auction format rather than BIN I'd wager it ends anywhere from $60 to $80, depending on how stiff competition is, but odds on the lower end, possibly even lower depending on the seller and presentation. That's just my semi-informed opinion...
My wantlist & references
Check this auction
ebay
Exact same coin as mine, a slightly cheaper date (1787), heavier wear, but with some BS story, and a $168.51 current high bid:
Digging around an old home in Galle, a young Sir Lankan boy discovered a treasure chest full of Dutch duits. It is thought that the original owner may have buried the chest when British forces invaded Ceylon in 1796. These coins have been buried for a couple of hundred years and all of them show signs of corrosion, rust, pitting and water damage. There are no undamaged coins from this hoard. Certificate included.
The only difference is you get a 'certificate':
<< <i>I really love these little coppers. Many of these VOC types are terribly common in mid to low grades, though there are a few scarcer ones in the mix. And while they are hard to come by in UNC, you'll have an easier time finding these in high grades than most German copper types from the same period.
>>
I spent quite a while reading about these coins, in the context of the Indies at least.
It seems that you've got purely in an Indies context:
imported Dutch duit of varying kinds
imported Dutch VOC-branded half duit, duit and double duit
locally-minted VOC-branded duits issued after the VOC collapsed
local 'DUYT JAVAS' duits
Louis Napoleon Duits
'INDIA BATAV' duits issued during and after the Batavian Republic
'NEDERL INDIE' duits
'1 C' and '2 C' (cent) duits
British copper duits
British tin duits
British brass duit
half, duit, and double duits that read 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 Stuiver
plus proof silver and gold of the above
And then of course numerous years, arms, mintmarks, die varieties, etc. for each.
For some reason the '1 Cent' duits are listed on numismaster as Netherlands East Indies/Sumatra, but they were issued in Surabay. Don't quite understand that.
<< <i>welp, Im not shamed about the pending delivery of my first duit... no chest corrosion. just nice sea salvage!
The middle 20 cash is nice - similar to a double duit - are they based on duits? Or on British pennies, Chinese coins, Indian coins, or something else?
Im not sure of it's relevance to the other coins...
both duits come with their salvage certs so I hope they do ok on the bay of e
<< <i>the duits are throw in's but I snagged it mostly for the 20 cash, Im very curious to see it in hand.
Im not sure of it's relevance to the other coins...
both duits come with their salvage certs so I hope they do ok on the bay of e
THe 1752 looks nice.
The British did produce some coppers nominally for the East Indies.
The 4 keping is probably the equivalent coin - 12.8g, though there are 1, 2 and 3 kepings too.
Do people really care about salvage certificates?
FOR SALE Items
best price coin sale link below (READ CAREFULLY)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
<< <i>I really love these little coppers. Many of these VOC types are terribly common in mid to low grades, though there are a few scarcer ones in the mix. And while they are hard to come by in UNC, you'll have an easier time finding these in high grades than most German copper types from the same period.
Yours is a nice example, maybe a bit better than average. I'd agree with calling it VF. For these to get XF it'd need cleaner surfaces and less wear on the lions. I wouldn't bother trying to clean it, considering the wear it'd just look funny. It's nice the way it is.
Netherlands Indies, 1808
This one has a really nice color that doesn't come out in the pics.
Just picked this up for $10 on ebay (this is the half duit):
Is it MS?
<< <i>
<< <i>I really love these little coppers. Many of these VOC types are terribly common in mid to low grades, though there are a few scarcer ones in the mix. And while they are hard to come by in UNC, you'll have an easier time finding these in high grades than most German copper types from the same period.
Yours is a nice example, maybe a bit better than average. I'd agree with calling it VF. For these to get XF it'd need cleaner surfaces and less wear on the lions. I wouldn't bother trying to clean it, considering the wear it'd just look funny. It's nice the way it is.
Netherlands Indies, 1808
This one has a really nice color that doesn't come out in the pics.
Just picked this up for $10 on ebay (this is the half duit):
Is it MS? >>
Incidentally, the value on these coins is wrong... They were actually 6 to 1/32 and 6 to 1/16 gulden, but had been intended for the Cape of Good Hope, where they were valued higher, but the Netherlands lost control of that colony.
I know that duits were counterfeited heavily. How profitable was this enterprise? What was the late 18th century value of copper in relation to silver and gold (for which the profit from counterfeiting amounts only to a few per cent normally I believe, because the intrinsic value could not be too much above bullion value for it to be accepted as coin)?