My recent slabbed racks
1989FleerBillRipkencollector
Posts: 4,590
I also got a cello with a Bill Ripken version on bottom that rec'd a 9.5. I cannot show a pic unfortunately, or elaborate on what version it is as it can be easily counterfitted. (not a saw cut)
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<< <i>Why GAI out of curiosity? Not saying anything bad, just curious. >>
PSA doesn't grade rack packs currently so there is no other choice if you want them slabbed, John
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
<< <i>
<< <i>Why GAI out of curiosity? Not saying anything bad, just curious. >>
PSA doesn't grade rack packs currently so there is no other choice if you want them slabbed, John >>
Wow! Didn't know that. Wonder why??
<< <i>Great Slabbed Racks! Do you ever sell any? I would love to acquire a couple of the FF unopened Racks or Cello for my 2 and 3 year old boys, so I can one day sit them down and explain the historical significance of those Bill Ripken and the different variations. Awesome stuff! Feel free to PM if you'de like. >>
Sorry, none of these are for sale.
Your dedication to this variation is unparalleled on the planet!
<< <i>Why GAI out of curiosity? Not saying anything bad, just curious. >>
I would think for rack packs using GAI wouldn't matter as much as wax since I would imagine it is much harder to reseal them, no? The biggest downside I see is, like the OP, there may be PSA pack collectors who want consistency in their collection... then again, I don't think he plans on selling these any time soon. I would have used GAI too for the very reasons he did if I wanted these for my personal collection.
Snorto~
Besides, you know what they say, anything more than a B cup is a waste... right?
mosaic's Nolan Ryan Basic Topps registry set
mosaic's Big 3 Nolan Ryan Run Showcase
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Spamming these boards so blatantly in an attempt to generate attention for the packs you've consigned to MH is not a good way to introduce yourself here.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>because Steve Hart is definately the best Pack grader out there >>
Moron, please read any other thread on this board regarding Steve Hart and pack grading. He does not grade packs.
Moron, please read any other thread on this board regarding Steve Hart and pack grading. He does not grade packs.
While sandlot is certainly guilty of spamming the boards, "moron" seems a bit harsh, don't you think?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
are you the sandlot auctions on ebay?
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
PSA doesn't want to drop the cash for the rack pack holders, and machine. The only reason the Turkey reds are holdered ... the guy with one of the largest collections of Turkey Reds flipped the cash for the machine. If PSA can't crunch the numbers, it isn't going to happen.
<< <i>Donovan, do you feel that Bill Ripkens on sealed cellos and racks pretty much follow the same rarity scale as the cards themselves... meaning FF and Black Boxes are probably easiest to find? Also, you've never seen a saw cut come from one, have you? >>
Yes rarity is the same.
I have 2 different saw cuts on rack and am still in therapy over the 3rd one I was outbid on years back.
My friend ripped a case of cellos this weekend and didn't get a single Ripken. He got it pretty cheap so it wasn't a big deal, but I still felt bad for him...
<< <i>Oh wow that sucks. I guess I'm surprised that you've even seen that many.
My friend ripped a case of cellos this weekend and didn't get a single Ripken. He got it pretty cheap so it wasn't a big deal, but I still felt bad for him... >>
Yeah, that's the risk with unopened 89 Fleer. Sometimes no versions at all. Happened to me alot.
Forgot to mention, I once pulled a saw cut from a rack pack. That was pretty cool. Another time I busted a rack case. Opened one box and didnt get any FF versions. Sold the other 2 boxes to onefasttalon thinking there wasnt any versions and he opened them and pulled Black Scribble saw cuts! He was nice enough to give me one free.
Just got it back from GAI awhile back. Here it is-
On your site you list the "double print" version. But based on your "no black ink on front" version, I don't think the double print is a double print. I think it's just bad registration on the black (K) ink...
If you look at your no black ink on front version, the cyan, magenta and yellow (CMY) buildup still makes for a very readable FF, along with dark stripes on his shirt, his black undershirt, and also black on the side of his hat. So what makes the double print a double print? I don't see two runs of K on on it. Where it says "Baltimore Orioles" in the top logo, there's only a single run of black ink, not two. Same with "Bill Ripken, Second Base" and "Fleer". If it was a true double print, there would be two of each of these also.
Am I completely off base? It seems that this one is better labeled "off registration black" rather than a double print.
You could be right. I have never completely understood why it was a Double Die (DDie) or Ghost printing as the whole image wasn't doubled. I was told it was a DDie by others and ran with it. Makes sense what you point out but I think there was a different plate or whatever for the pic/logo vs. Fleer/name/position as I used to own a black plate from 06 ? basketball that was only the logo. The card had other black on it but the plate only had the logo.
The "missing ink" below doesnt have the name/position/Fleer on it, the same ones that are not doubled in the DDies. So that leads me to think the Fleer/name/position was a seperate part of the printing vs logo/pic. Or it could be the registration is off on the pic/logo black. Not the Fleer/name/position?
I’d be VERY surprised if they had two black plates for Fleer cards, especially in 1989. It’s cost prohibitive to run extra colors, and to my knowledge all manufacturers were printing CMYK then… and likely still for most of them.
In the case of your card, I think all of the black ink was simply off registration, about 1-2mm. The black "shift" seems uniform all around the card.
See my b/w image below. I took just the color black out of a normal FF card. So think of this as being the "black" plate. Now watch what happens when I superimpose it on your “no black” version, with a slight shift down. I think it looks the same as your "double-die", don't you? Pay special attention to the FF and the Orioles logo text at top. His name/position and "Fleer" don't appear off registration because there's no point of reference for them... so they seem normal.
It's a little skewed because the the photo itself is a little skewed, but I think you get the point. If you gave me a flat scan of the card and I was able to superimpose it then, I think I'd be able to convince you beyond a doubt.
Sorry for the large images, but it's much easier to see big...
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Also if it was one plate then why does my "missing ink version" have black and no black on the same card?
Also if this helps in any way...My buddy has a DDie FF and the doubled words are in Red. ? I also have some DDie that the doubleing or ink bleeding? is in purple.
I appretiate your help on this. Thank You.
Here's more pics of missing ink that might help? (not mine though
Your missing ink version DOES NOT have black. What appears to be black on the handle and elsewhere is the Cyan, Magenta and Yellow buildup. When you lay blue and red heavy over eachother, it can turn a very dark brown, almost even black. That's what it looks like on your card.
Here's one more image. Let's say the name/position was printed originally with blue under black. I'll put blue there to make a "point of reference" for the black. See how now the name and position seem out of registration like the rest of the card? They don't on your "double-die" because there is nothing showing where they SHOULD have been, so they seem fine while the rest of the card seems abnormal. Keep in mind the vertical gray lines on the background of the card are all part of the black plate too. The card stock itself is completely white.
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To be honest, I'm surprised GAI would label it as a "double-die" without further research. Any grading co that purports to know how to spot fakes, and therefore have an understanding of the CMYK print process, should be able to see that it is simply off registration. Really, it should be docked grades because of the poor registration, just like any other card would.
I hope this is making more sense...
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was very surprised to see that GAI is still in business......
<< <i>
<< <i>because Steve Hart is definately the best Pack grader out there >>
Moron, please read any other thread on this board regarding Steve Hart and pack grading. He does not grade packs. >>
No, he just sells the OC ones with no stars.....
"What appears to be black on the handle and elsewhere is the Cyan, Magenta and Yellow buildup. When you lay blue and red heavy over eachother, it can turn a very dark brown, almost even black. That's what it looks like on your card. "
So basically the FF,Franklin and number on glove,bat logo etc is not printed in black but rather CMY and the black went over it and was off register, causing the double look? Why do they print it in one coler and then go over it in black? Why not just the black like the Fleer/name/position?
I think I got it.
Since I have you here and you know your stuff....Can you explain these printing flaws-
Dot- Usually a smooth egde but has a portion missing and a black print dot. I have seen print dots but dont think I have seen where is removes part of the other color. Is that normal?
And this one-Where the line is jagged. What would cause that? Any ideas?
<< <i>I got a question if you are buying a rack box or case is there a way to tell which version might be in it from the case itself? >>
Maybe. To say anymore will only hurt collectors and help those who use this hobby to profit. I dont care about using this hobby to profit but when it's going to affect my collecting goals...sorry. As I, along with a few FF collectors buy cases.
To those sitting on cases wondering...PM me, provide requested pics of cases and I'll help. To those looking for info to go out on the market to cherry pick cases...Good Luck.
<< <i>nice rack packs!
was very surprised to see that GAI is still in business...... >>
Thanks !!
I sent them about $150 so thats why.
See how the "higher" FF is more of a muted black... almost a "muddy" color? That's because it's not actually black... it's the combination of other colors that appear that way. You'll notice the "lower" FF is distinctly black - no arguing that. So at quick glance it looks like two blacks, but since nowhere else on the card (name/position/fleer) is the black doubleprinted, we know that it's just off-registration.
If I can make some time tonight I'll actually recreate your "blackless" card color-by-color to show you how it builds up to look black using only cyan, magenta and yellow. Ahh the magic of Photoshop.
The black dot is what they (in printing) call a "fisheye". Basically a small speck of dust or dirt, etc gets stuck on the plate. When the black ink runs over the card, ink sticks to the dirt and presses to the card, but because it is slightly raised off the plate, cannot reach the area immediately around the dirt. That's why there's the "halo" effect. Look closely at your card with a loupe. Depending on how big that dirt was, you might actually see an minute indentation.
In my opinion, the jagged line has to be part of the original artwork. That one has always fascinated me because... look at the non-jagged line (call it line 1). See how it is obviously thicker than the jagged line (line 2)? BUUUT, each of them line up directly with the outside of the orange diagonal line below. That seems to mean that the original artwork was actually changed (or a completely different set of plates made) to create the card with the jagged edge. If they were the same plates and line 2 was that much thinner, it wouldn't stretch all the way out to the outside of the orange diagonal line.
Jagged line is only found with the rounded box (in factory sets), right? My guess is by the time they started printing factory sets, their "fixes" to the original plates had taken a toll on the plates (and possibly the machinery) so they just decided to create new plates from the original artwork. Something happened at that time that altered that left line and it was never fixed.
This is all speculation of course...
The jagged line is on the round box and there is also a round box "straight" line. The glossy has a jagged line but there is no other glossy variation.
The full sheets of Black Box (that I have seen) have the round box straight line.
I have only opened one factory set awhile back and cant remember if it was jagged/straight or round/straight box. (Wish I kept better notes when I started)
Thanks again for all your input. This has been a tremendous help.
I just cracked a sealed factory set this weekend and it was rounded/jagged line. It is also about a 1/16" short and miscut as hell. Hahah...